"Incontinence" that keeps getting better with anti
"Incontinence" that keeps getting better with anti
Hey Traci,
So, I'm back again. This time my dog started leaking urine a bit at bedtime, at rest, etc. in November. Then it progressed to blood in his urine. We did xrays, which were clear, and then an ultrasound that found cystitis, calcifications in his kidneys (they've been there since his first stone surgery when he was 3, they were calcified to the kidney and unremovable), and what is either a polyp or a tumour in his bladder. He got 21 days of zeniquil which began to work within the first few days, stopping the blood and his leaking.
In January, about 3 weeks after the zeniquil was done, he started peeing again. It wasn't every day, but a fair amount each time. It happens ~2 hours after he eats (we give him a lot of water with meals to ensure his pee isn't concentrated to avoid oxalate stones). He leaks a little bit, bit by bit, until I make him go on a training pad. When he pees he always goes a bit, then goes back again, then goes back again, until he's empty. A culture showed nothing, but the person she spoke to at the lab said it's possible the bacteria is short lived and dying before they can culture it. He went on zeniquil again and within 2 days the leaking had stopped.
He finished that run of antibiotics on Feb 1. Today he started leaking again, and doing the pee, go back, go back routine. There is no blood, but my guess is that it's uncomfortable. My vet recommended PPA, but with his kidney function already questionable and an abnormal heart rhythm (it almost never beats in a normal pattern), I declined. I also don't think it's an issue of not being able to hold it in, as much as that he IS holding it and avoiding peeing. She gave me more zeniquil, but I'm hoping to find something that will stop this entirely. She recommended Science Diet Calm, thinking that it's an anxiety issue, but then why do the antibiotics keep stopping it? And how come he doesn't pee himself when I'm away on business? I would think of all times that should be when he leaks the most. I'm already giving him cranberry extract and glucosamine, but they don't seem to be helping. I want to avoid painkillers because he already barely shows when something is really wrong, and with his myriad of issues, we need to know when things are going south. I just want to try to figure out what the CAUSE is and heal it!
Do you have any insight? Thank you!
So, I'm back again. This time my dog started leaking urine a bit at bedtime, at rest, etc. in November. Then it progressed to blood in his urine. We did xrays, which were clear, and then an ultrasound that found cystitis, calcifications in his kidneys (they've been there since his first stone surgery when he was 3, they were calcified to the kidney and unremovable), and what is either a polyp or a tumour in his bladder. He got 21 days of zeniquil which began to work within the first few days, stopping the blood and his leaking.
In January, about 3 weeks after the zeniquil was done, he started peeing again. It wasn't every day, but a fair amount each time. It happens ~2 hours after he eats (we give him a lot of water with meals to ensure his pee isn't concentrated to avoid oxalate stones). He leaks a little bit, bit by bit, until I make him go on a training pad. When he pees he always goes a bit, then goes back again, then goes back again, until he's empty. A culture showed nothing, but the person she spoke to at the lab said it's possible the bacteria is short lived and dying before they can culture it. He went on zeniquil again and within 2 days the leaking had stopped.
He finished that run of antibiotics on Feb 1. Today he started leaking again, and doing the pee, go back, go back routine. There is no blood, but my guess is that it's uncomfortable. My vet recommended PPA, but with his kidney function already questionable and an abnormal heart rhythm (it almost never beats in a normal pattern), I declined. I also don't think it's an issue of not being able to hold it in, as much as that he IS holding it and avoiding peeing. She gave me more zeniquil, but I'm hoping to find something that will stop this entirely. She recommended Science Diet Calm, thinking that it's an anxiety issue, but then why do the antibiotics keep stopping it? And how come he doesn't pee himself when I'm away on business? I would think of all times that should be when he leaks the most. I'm already giving him cranberry extract and glucosamine, but they don't seem to be helping. I want to avoid painkillers because he already barely shows when something is really wrong, and with his myriad of issues, we need to know when things are going south. I just want to try to figure out what the CAUSE is and heal it!
Do you have any insight? Thank you!
Re: "Incontinence" that keeps getting better with
You could try for another culture, since he's not currently back on the antibiotics.
Could you clarify, when you say zeniquil, do you mean zeniquin?
Also, did you mean to say the Royal Canin prescription Calm dog food? Otherwise, Hill's has prescription U/D, which also has l-tryptophan.
First rule out infection, (that culture would be ideal). If no infection, that leaves the bladder inflammation and/or the lack of bladder tone that causes him to leak or dribble. It's not so much he is holding it (I doubt he is), it's the nature of incontinence and the degree of severity.
Pending culture results, this is a tough decision, the PPA could have unwanted side effects, yet surgery isn't without risk either. I would ask your vet for her best judgement and see if surgery for him would be curative. If PPA is chosen, it may need to be given in the smallest dose for a very long time, perhaps even for life. I'm not sure I would want to
risk using this medication long-term, especially with his other issues.
If your vet is confident, or can refer you to a specialist surgeon, surgery might be the better option, providing hers and the opinion of the surgeon's is that it gives a good chance at being curative. It would also give the surgeon a chance to see and potentially remove a cyst, mass, or whatever it was seen on the ultrasound, during surgery, and also sending it off for pathology so you'd know just what you were/are dealing with.
If he were my dog, I would probably opt for surgery, provided he is a good anesthesia candidacy. What does your vet say about surgery?
P.S. there's more research now that suggests glucosamine isn't as effective as we'd like to believe. I think the jury is still out, since pet owners and vet alike sometimes do see improvement, I just don't know if anecdotally, that's enough to continue to recommend it. On the other hand, talk to your vet because she may agree to continue it.
Could you clarify, when you say zeniquil, do you mean zeniquin?
Also, did you mean to say the Royal Canin prescription Calm dog food? Otherwise, Hill's has prescription U/D, which also has l-tryptophan.
First rule out infection, (that culture would be ideal). If no infection, that leaves the bladder inflammation and/or the lack of bladder tone that causes him to leak or dribble. It's not so much he is holding it (I doubt he is), it's the nature of incontinence and the degree of severity.
Pending culture results, this is a tough decision, the PPA could have unwanted side effects, yet surgery isn't without risk either. I would ask your vet for her best judgement and see if surgery for him would be curative. If PPA is chosen, it may need to be given in the smallest dose for a very long time, perhaps even for life. I'm not sure I would want to
risk using this medication long-term, especially with his other issues.
If your vet is confident, or can refer you to a specialist surgeon, surgery might be the better option, providing hers and the opinion of the surgeon's is that it gives a good chance at being curative. It would also give the surgeon a chance to see and potentially remove a cyst, mass, or whatever it was seen on the ultrasound, during surgery, and also sending it off for pathology so you'd know just what you were/are dealing with.
If he were my dog, I would probably opt for surgery, provided he is a good anesthesia candidacy. What does your vet say about surgery?
P.S. there's more research now that suggests glucosamine isn't as effective as we'd like to believe. I think the jury is still out, since pet owners and vet alike sometimes do see improvement, I just don't know if anecdotally, that's enough to continue to recommend it. On the other hand, talk to your vet because she may agree to continue it.
..........Traci
Sorry, I did mean zeniquin and Royal Canin.
If we were to opt for surgery, would it be to remove the lump in his bladder only? Or is there something else that could be done as well? I want to ask the vet about it, she didn't mention it at all (although with all of his issues, including the weird heartbeat, that doesn't surprise me).
I should also mention that he's been trying to lick his penis a lot. Last night he was going nuts on it, I stop him though because I'm worried about him getting an infection there too. The xrays and ultrasound showed no blockages, though.
If we were to opt for surgery, would it be to remove the lump in his bladder only? Or is there something else that could be done as well? I want to ask the vet about it, she didn't mention it at all (although with all of his issues, including the weird heartbeat, that doesn't surprise me).
I should also mention that he's been trying to lick his penis a lot. Last night he was going nuts on it, I stop him though because I'm worried about him getting an infection there too. The xrays and ultrasound showed no blockages, though.
Re: "Incontinence" that keeps getting better with
Well, there might be two different procedures, one is a diagnostic procedure, to find what is causing the problem (like a cystoscopy, a scope that can view the bladder and any obvious problems that are causing incontinence), then it is sometimes followed by surgery to correct the problem (depending on what the problem is and IF surgery can be corrective). You said the vet said there might be a polyp or tumor in the bladder, so the diagnostic procedure could narrow that down and determine what is there that could possibly be corrected. Only the vet or surgeon can tell you if removing a polyp or cyst is necessary, and if a tumor, to what extent surgery is possible to remove it.
Here are some possibilities for diagnostics and treatment options:
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/smal ... inence.cfm
Whichever option the vet chooses, you should get a culture done before a diagnostic procedure such as cystoscopy. My guess is whatever is causing the lack of tone in the bladder is also increasing susceptibility to urinary tract infection anyway (hence why he responds to antibiotics, feels better and seems to be able to produce more normally) - the antibiotics aren't curing the problem however, if there is something more involved going on inside the bladder - this is where the vet can determine exactly the source of the problem.
Licking the area might be indicative of pain or discomfort, which could be associated with a urinary tract infection, inflammation that is causing discomfort, or his natural inclination to lick since he is leaking urine. You should however, inform your vet he is doing it. If your vet has office hours tomorrow, call and talk to her about it, and ask if she can talk to you more in depth about a cystoscopy, her opinion on it and if it would be a good option at this point. The cystoscopy is a much less invasive procedure than actual surgery, but if you proceed and if something is found, be prepared for surgery if it can be corrected.
Here are some possibilities for diagnostics and treatment options:
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/smal ... inence.cfm
Whichever option the vet chooses, you should get a culture done before a diagnostic procedure such as cystoscopy. My guess is whatever is causing the lack of tone in the bladder is also increasing susceptibility to urinary tract infection anyway (hence why he responds to antibiotics, feels better and seems to be able to produce more normally) - the antibiotics aren't curing the problem however, if there is something more involved going on inside the bladder - this is where the vet can determine exactly the source of the problem.
Licking the area might be indicative of pain or discomfort, which could be associated with a urinary tract infection, inflammation that is causing discomfort, or his natural inclination to lick since he is leaking urine. You should however, inform your vet he is doing it. If your vet has office hours tomorrow, call and talk to her about it, and ask if she can talk to you more in depth about a cystoscopy, her opinion on it and if it would be a good option at this point. The cystoscopy is a much less invasive procedure than actual surgery, but if you proceed and if something is found, be prepared for surgery if it can be corrected.
..........Traci
Re: "Incontinence" that keeps getting better with
We did a culture when the incontinence returned in January and it didn't show anything. The original one when he was peeing blood showed e.coli, which is what all of his cultures always show (anal glands, his feet when he was chewing the fur off, his ears when he had an ear infection, and every bladder infection he's had).Traci wrote:Well, there might be two different procedures, one is a diagnostic procedure, to find what is causing the problem (like a cystoscopy, a scope that can view the bladder and any obvious problems that are causing incontinence), then it is sometimes followed by surgery to correct the problem (depending on what the problem is and IF surgery can be corrective). You said the vet said there might be a polyp or tumor in the bladder, so the diagnostic procedure could narrow that down and determine what is there that could possibly be corrected. Only the vet or surgeon can tell you if removing a polyp or cyst is necessary, and if a tumor, to what extent surgery is possible to remove it.
Here are some possibilities for diagnostics and treatment options:
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/smal ... inence.cfm
Whichever option the vet chooses, you should get a culture done before a diagnostic procedure such as cystoscopy. My guess is whatever is causing the lack of tone in the bladder is also increasing susceptibility to urinary tract infection anyway (hence why he responds to antibiotics, feels better and seems to be able to produce more normally) - the antibiotics aren't curing the problem however, if there is something more involved going on inside the bladder - this is where the vet can determine exactly the source of the problem.
Licking the area might be indicative of pain or discomfort, which could be associated with a urinary tract infection, inflammation that is causing discomfort, or his natural inclination to lick since he is leaking urine. You should however, inform your vet he is doing it. If your vet has office hours tomorrow, call and talk to her about it, and ask if she can talk to you more in depth about a cystoscopy, her opinion on it and if it would be a good option at this point. The cystoscopy is a much less invasive procedure than actual surgery, but if you proceed and if something is found, be prepared for surgery if it can be corrected.
I'll talk to my vet, thanks!
Re: "Incontinence" that keeps getting better with
Ugh, did your vet ever say why the e-coli seems to always be the culprit?
..........Traci
Nope, even the dermatologist had no idea. He's had the e.coli issue in his anal glands since he was 3, and we guess now that all of his other infections back then (the first was when he was neutered, and then everything became infected at some point thereafter - gums, feet, ears, eyes, sinuses, etc.) were probably the same issue. What's weird is that all the tests of his immune system come back perfectly normal, and he never runs a fever or has any other signs of distress other than the specific symptom direct to where the infection is (itchiness, peeing problems). Then when we conquer the e.coli, he gets a fungal infection. When we deal with the fungus, the e.coli has come back. It's like treating one just opens up the dog buffet to the other one. Even now on the antibiotics, I'm having to wash his itchy bits with Nizoral to keep the fungus at bay, otherwise he starts chewing on his feet and licking his bum.Traci wrote:Ugh, did your vet ever say why the e-coli seems to always be the culprit?
Tack it on to the pulpitis, enlarged liver, weird heart rhythm, bladder/kidney stones, thyroid disease and everything else - he's a mystery.
Re: "Incontinence" that keeps getting better with
Maybe you need a new vet, a specialist in internal medicine. It just doesn't seem right that he has so many issues/infections - and it certainly doesn't make any sense if his immunology profiles are normal. Actually, quite the opposite, the immunology should have pointed to something - perhaps the vet wasn't testing for other things, like weird uncommon things (i.e., lupus, granuloma complex, etc). Might bring that up with her.
..........Traci
Re: "Incontinence" that keeps getting better with
I'm going to do that on Monday, thank you!Traci wrote:Maybe you need a new vet, a specialist in internal medicine. It just doesn't seem right that he has so many issues/infections - and it certainly doesn't make any sense if his immunology profiles are normal. Actually, quite the opposite, the immunology should have pointed to something - perhaps the vet wasn't testing for other things, like weird uncommon things (i.e., lupus, granuloma complex, etc). Might bring that up with her.
Re: "Incontinence" that keeps getting better with
I found my notes from when this started:
- jumping up and down off bed, took off diaper 6:30, kept trying to pee but nothing came out, checked pad and saw drop of blood, diaper full of urine and blood; took to vet, put on zeniquin 25mg once per 24h, culture of urine (which was like jello, full of mucus), no fever, ultrasound booked as bladder looks thickened, 10.6lbs; started tramodol 10mg every 12 hours
- ultrasound; calcification of kidney, stones in kidney, interstitial nephritis, thickening of bladder, tumour or polyp on bladder; culture of urine showed e.coli; meloxicam for pain, will continue zeniquin for 6 weeks, cranberry extract
I'm creating a "cheat sheet" of his issues for the internist and will get a referral hopefully tomorrow. Thanks!
- jumping up and down off bed, took off diaper 6:30, kept trying to pee but nothing came out, checked pad and saw drop of blood, diaper full of urine and blood; took to vet, put on zeniquin 25mg once per 24h, culture of urine (which was like jello, full of mucus), no fever, ultrasound booked as bladder looks thickened, 10.6lbs; started tramodol 10mg every 12 hours
- ultrasound; calcification of kidney, stones in kidney, interstitial nephritis, thickening of bladder, tumour or polyp on bladder; culture of urine showed e.coli; meloxicam for pain, will continue zeniquin for 6 weeks, cranberry extract
I'm creating a "cheat sheet" of his issues for the internist and will get a referral hopefully tomorrow. Thanks!