toxic plant Sempervivum & cats

[pucca]

Hello,

I am trying to find out where this site found that Sempervivum is toxic to cats and verify this information.

I have seen it listed as non-toxic as well. I think there is also some confusion because Sempervivum and Echeveria make up what are commonly called "chicks and hens" (or hens and chicks?). So the ASPCA lists hens and chicks as non-toxic but refers to only Echeveria. http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/poison-co ... -cats.aspx
This California Poison Control site says that Sempervivum (specifically) is not toxic http://www.calpoison.org/hcp/KNOW%20YOU ... %2009B.pdf

However, this site says Sempervivum is toxic. I am trying to get a definitive answer, so thought I would try to go to the source. Thank you very much!!

[Tina B and crew]

Always better to err on the side of caution I say

[Traci]

The second link you posted is a database page citing non-toxic plants to humans. Plus, they cite that "bold" notations are known to be dangerous to animals, but if you examine that list carefully, they didn't include/bold-type many which are actually known to be toxic to animals.

As with any agricultural, veterinary, botanical or any other site with reference to animals, the disclaimer should be throughout, for example, just because it is listed or presumed not to be toxic to humans does NOT mean it can't be toxic to pets and other species of animals. Likewise, there is no extensive toxic plant database on the net for animals, because nearly any plant can have some level of toxic effect, whether mild or severe. You will also see sites state that while one plant may only cause mild vomiting or GI tract distress, they therefore don't consider that a "toxic effect". I don't agree to that reasoning since one effect can affect pets in different ways.

Such is why I also have my disclaimer - it is not an all-inclusive list, neither are some plants listed as mild vs severe in terms of toxicity. Please note the first warning on that page, the reference to any part of the plant ingested could be problematic.

One must always consider the individual when regarding toxic plants or those plants suspected to have toxic effects, no matter the level. Individual age, health, size, exposure, concurrent health conditions etc. What might not affect one pet too severe might in fact, harm another pet considerably. It is inferred not to take chances with any of the listed plants.

As for sempervivum vs echevaria, the problems lies in that sempervivum has over 40 species, the echevaria likely to as well, and both are often confused as the same plant (some varieties are significantly different, especially when considering geographical location etc). While they are in the same genus, and likewise, a sub-family, they are quite different in terms of varieties.

But one shared fact is that the toxic effect derives from naturally occurring piperidine alkaloids as well as unidentified irritants and because there are so many species of these plants, the amount(s) are various, therefore the toxicity potential is various. Leaves and sap contain these alkaloids. They taste somewhat like very very hot pepper, which, while we would like to assume cats will avoid them, there are always curious cats who will nibble out of curiosity or out of some temptation - ingested orally could really cause harm (burns, mucous membrane damage) - a severe dermatitis could also result.

Another problem is that these plants are often called a variety of other common names, which makes it even more confusing to pet owners.

I don't consider the ASPCA-APCC the be-all-end-all toxic plant database, they are certainly not inclusive of the toxic plants known to be toxic to some degree. I believe their database is mainly derived from call centers, collaborations with other poison control centers, et al, but they tend to list those plants more commonly known or inquired about by pet owners.

As for references, a few of them are listed on my page, (admittedly I need to update their links) - those which I felt were easy to access to pet owners. Other sources were a two-year research project where I gathered information from multiple agri-science sites, veterinary toxic plant databases, botanical references and veterinary textbooks and then cross-referenced them for accuracy. As new information on toxic plants are found, I add them to the list.

[pucca]

Traci,

Thanks so much that is very helpful. I really appreciate your detailed response and site.

Yes I know that second list was for humans with animal toxins bolded, but yours and that site were the only two places I even found it mentioned specifically.

The piperidine alkaloids you mentioned (the toxin in the Sempervivum) -- other than the dermatitis concerns, can it cause other issues (e.g., kidney problems). Or are the dermatitis issues the only ones I need to be on the lookout for? I had bought some Chicks and Hens (S & E kinds) thinking they were okay, until I came across your site . . .

Also, do you know what type of damage a gardenia or lucky bamboo cause? I did not know they were toxic to cats until recently and one of my cats chewed on one or both -- she seems fine, but not sure if there is some internal kidney damage going on that I should be worried about or the toxin was more temporary and a GI thing. Of course, I have since moved both to the office. My lavender is okay though, right?

Thanks again.

[pucca]

Found this, so likely at least one of my questions is answered -- Sempervivum issue:

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/cons ... empesp.htm

although that is humans . . .

[Traci]

Most all toxic plants' effects are liver, kidney and GI effects, not necessarily in that order. More severe effects include heart, shock, and respiratory function. The dose makes the poison, meaning how much is ingested. It doesn't have to be swallowed to be ingested.

Signs to watch for, for ANY plant ingestion: drooling, coughing, dilated pupils, anorexia, vomiting, diarrhea, stumbling/incoordination, confusion, ulcers/burns in or around mouth/nose, +/- fever activity, lethargy, paralysis (even partial), breathing distress, shock, rapid or reduced heart rate, unusual gum color (red/purple/white), dehydration, blood from any cavity, blood in vomitus or urine. Extended effects would be increased water consumption, dehydration, vomiting, weight loss, anorexia, pallor, potential jaundice, changes in urine and urination habits, liver or kidney disease diagnosed with any of these symptoms.

Dermal effects: fur loss, ulcers or abrasions on skin, reddened skin, itching, irritation, kitty scratching or licking at the area etc.

Depending on the plant, how much ingested, toxic dose, will depend on the long-term effects. Lillies for example, highly toxic, deadly if not treated immediately (sometimes treatment is too late). Any time one suspects a plant has been nibbled on by their cat, ALWAYS assume toxic and get to vet immediately, it is always best to play it safe. ALWAYS keep plants away from cats, don't just assume since they are in a hanging basket or on a top shelf that cats can't get to them, they WILL!

As for the lavender, I would play it safe and keep it in an area away from the cats. Of course, essential oils are extracted from these and other plants and the phenols in the extracts are deadly to cats (despite the numerous misinformation you see on the net about some plants and essential oils, you must never assume they are safe for pets, essential oils are NOT - they have oral, dermal and inhalant dangers).

Lucky bamboos are considered highly toxic, depending on when she nibbled on it, and if she appears fine, she should be ok. However, again - depending on when she nibbled on it - and depending on her age and health status, you can ask your vet if he thinks a chemical blood profile for kidney enzymes might be warranted.

I have access to some of the common plants that affect major organ functions specifically, give me some time to check on this, if I can get citing permission, I might be able to post it.

[pucca]

Thanks Traci . . . starting to feel like I can't have any of my favorite plants around though . . .
Take care. Great information again!