4 week old kittens Questions and help please

[Bama]

Thank you for taking the time to reply, Tambrey and Traci. I appreciate it. My cats are 10 yo and it's been awhile since I've done the kitten thing, and never this young before.

Tambrey, that was my next question, LOL! One kitten did have a bm after supper, I haven't seen anything from the others. I've been gently petting them to stimulate something but not in that area. I'll have to do the warm water/cotton ball thing.

Traci, I appreciate all the invaluable information. I knew some pet store things were not good but didn't know about these items. I've stopped with both the wormer and eye drops. Our vet does take post dated checks and I'm hoping he will work with me on the prices...if it comes down to paying full price for 4 cats health care/spay/neuter along with our 2 other cats and 3 dogs, we just can't do it. I'd hate to think I rushed into this and can't make a happy ending for the kittens. Our shelter is NOT a no kill plus we live next door to the county dog catcher (he is not a nice person) so I wouldn't put the kittens in their care. There is the Fairhope Cat Coalition that may help. Their main purpose is to spay/neuter feral colonies, to keep the cats as healthy as possible, and prevent new litters. If I did have to place the kittens I would go through one of the humane volunteer groups here so the adopter would have to pay and fill out a reference form. It's a little more comforting than a "free kitten" ad. I'd never do that either. The kittens are probably here to stay but I'd like to get some local aid with the rest of the colony. There are at least two more litters and maybe 100 adults. Are there any books on cat behavior? My sil who lives near the abandoned barn said that some of the kittens were killed by male cats and yet some are left alone...I'd like to know why and how to prevent that. It makes me wary of removing any to spay/neuter and then returning them.

All of the kittens ate the canned food with a little dry mixed in. Should I buy the formula to supplement anyway to make sure they are getting what they need? I don't think they need a bottle now but I could add it to their food. They do have a water bowl readily available but stick their whole nose in, sneeze, and paw at it, I haven't seen much drinking.

[Traci]

A vet visit/exam will allow your vet to estimate their ages, which will help him and you determine what they should be eating at this point. Many kittens are supplemented on KMR, some up to 10 or so weeks of age, so you have to watch each kitten like a hawk and monitor them for how much they are eating, how much they are gaining weight and growing each day, their ability to urinate/defecate and digest their food properly etc. The problem is not knowing their true ages, but until you do, it wouldn't hurt to pick up a canister of KMR powder and kitten nurser bottles and nipples. If you have other kittens to catch at some point, these items will be handy for them as well.

I would venture to guess they are too young for water, and I wouldn't encourage them to drink until we know their true ages. Keep a shallow dish with water available, but watch them when they are near it. They can't navigate it, their depth perception is off and it takes a bit of learning for them when being introduced to water. As long as they are on canned food, there should be enough moisture to sustain their hydration, but again, they DO need to be checked by your vet immediately so he can determine that and determine their overall health status.

I would not feed dry kitten food until we know their ages. If you add too much or too little, add it to canned food, or aren't feeding them on an acceptable schedule, they are easily susceptible to constipation, which in a young kitten, can be extremely detrimental. Stick with canned only until you've had them seen by your vet.

Any chance you can post pics of them near an item of proportionate size we can compare? (i.e., like your hand)

I want to confrim something, in an earlier post you said you let one of your resident cats "out", but do you mean outside? If so, please don't, as the stress of having new kittens in the home may prompt them stress and if allowed outdoors, they may not return. Of course, we always advocate indoor-only cats.

The goal of feral cat management as it relates to kittens, is every attempt made to transition kittens into sociable kittens so they can be adopted into good homes. The same applies to all adult cats who present signs of sociability, calmness, willingness to bond etc. It isn't simply as easy as TNR, it also involves attempts at homing a large number of them who are potentially adoptable. This furthermore, puts less strain on the other cats in the colony, and reduces the number in the colony (along with spay/neuter so they do not reproduce and add to the colony). I think you have a pretty good grasp on feral cat management and helping them, I just didn't want you to miss some vital components of that if you can help in that way.

Every area is different, every rescue group has different policies and structures, so talk to as many as you can for assistance with spays and neuters, they might take them on or refer you to others with resources. In the interim, ask them also for spay/neuter or low-cost spay/neuter events that might be on their calendars, this IS "kitten season" and spay/neuter clinics are in full force. Check with your local Humane Society if you have one in your area for events as well. Your own vet might be in the loop, so ask him too.

As for the behavior, that ties in to the colony management. An effective, consistent management with spay/neuter etc will reduce the tendency for fighting, territorial issues, losses of kittens. Intact males will sometimes kill newborns or very young kittens, so they must be protected, and the intact adult males neutered at the earliest convenience possible. Kittens left alone by their mothers is often due to the mothers being too young themselves, or she doesn't have enough milk to support them, or she is ill and cannot nurse them sufficiently, or she leaves the colony to mate elsewhere, the reasons are numerous. But, proper management of the colony can greatly reduce these hazards.

When you spay/neuter, the cats are cared for seperately, in your home (or via rescue orgs, foster parents, etc), where you can monitor them during recovery etc. They can be released in a certain time frame, but their survival depends on your continued monitorization of them, care and feeding, providing proper shelter etc. That's why they call it management of the colony, you are effectively caring for them and providing them their basic needs. With newborns and young kittens, it is best to place them with rescue orgs or foster parents or raise them yourself until they are healthy, at a certain age, socialized, vetted, and ready for adoption into good homes, this affords them protection, decreases the numbers of defenseless kittens in the colony, and affords them a good start in life in proper homes.

Again, keep the kittens seperated in another room from your resident cats. Not only do you have the worry of immunity and not knowing the kittens' prior exposures, but your older cats may also be susceptible, particularly stress. Stress in any cat, but particularly older cats can exacerbate considerably and cause undue illness to develop suddenly.

[Bama]

Here's the latest...

I took the kittens to the vet this am. We have 3 boys and had 1 little girl. The little girl was like a gray tabby, only a golden brown, and she had spots and stripes all over her body from head to toe so we were calling her Princess Jaguar. DD4 named her. A woman at the vet's office wanted her, the vet tech (in private) said she was really good with animals, she had 3 of her own there today, 2 dogs and 1 cat, so we let her go. I did ask her to promise to spay her, I know I can't hold her to it now but I do believe that she will take good care of the kitten. I also gave her my name and phone number and told her that if she ever needed to find the kitten a home, to call me and I would take her back. It was a LOT harder than I thought it would be but it's done now. She was guesstimated to be about 5 weeks old, still didn't have all of her teeth yet. The others are about 6 weeks old. I got an antibiotic to treat their eyes and they all got a worm treatment. The vet was really nice and gave me a 4 for 1 deal. How could I refuse?

I'm still working on a plan for neutering. The one lead I have hasn't called me back yet but I'm not giving up. I'll try her again and call the local humane societies. At least I've got a little time before it becomes a necessity.

The kittens are living in the laundry room for now. It's a pretty good size. We take them out in the yard several times a day to eat (keeping the ants away from the food in the laundry room is a chore), play, and romp. DD9's last day of school is Thursday so they will be out a lot more when she's home. There is a bridge dh built for the girls that the kittens have found and love to hide underneath.

Just a little background... we have two himalayans, brother and sister, both spayed/neutered. Both were inside cats for several years but when we moved to the country, Frankie (male) decided that wasn't going to work. He would dart outside every time the door opened. He is now an outside cat but never roams from our porch unless we are outside. We let him in when he wants, but he will just sniff everything, run to the door and meow to be let out. He's a lap cat who eats up attention but only if you're outside. I don't want you to think I just tossed him outside to fend for himself. Sammie (female) stays inside, will occasionally go outside if we are outside, and I do put her out sometimes just for a change of scenery. I'm a sahm so I'm always with her. She also doesn't stray. Both cats follow us around like puppies, come when called, and are as mellow as a tree stump! LOL! She doesn't like to stay outside but a little visit isn't a bad thing. She will just sit by the door when she is ready to come in. Can you say spoiled?

Thank you all for your help! Any more advice that comes to mind will be appreciated!! I'm not sure if I can do this again with more of the colony but at least I kept 3 males from propagating and one female from having litters. I hope that made a little difference in their world. It was extremely hard giving up Princess Jaguar, I still get teary even though I know all is well, but I guess I have attachment issues.

[mamabear]

GREAT JOB!!! YOu did great with bringing htem in bama!!! Great for the vet giving you a 4 for 1 deal woooooooow kudos to the vet...

It is always hard to let go no matter how long you have had them or how short a time you have had them.

[Traci]

I'm going to repeat, we strongly advocate INDOORS ONLY!! You cannot predict, assume, or be complacent about the fact that cats will and can and do run away, it only takes one second and then they are at risk for numerous outdoor hazards.

Cats are easily acclimated to the indoors, failure of acclimation usually only occurs because the owner isn't diligent, doesn't commit to acclimation, doesn't provide an interesting indoor environment and gives in and it only takes one time of allowing the cat outdoors for the cat to learn the owner will allow him again and again outdoors.

I MUST urge you to do the same for the kittens, start raising them strictly indoors, they deserve to be kept safe from harm, and a kitten raised underfoot in an indoor-only environment becomes even more adoptable since the next owner doesn't have to re-train to acclimate them indoors. The hazards of the outdoors are just too many.

Don't you have another room available that is in better condition to keep the kittens in? Ants in a laundry room??? That's not good for any pet (or your children). Ants bite, they are unsanitary, and pets should't be put into the position of having to deal with them, dart around them, have their food put up because ants are around.

[Bama]

I understand your position but it just ain't happening here. There is no way, short of physical restraint in a cage, that I can keep Frankie indoors. Believe me (or don't), I tried. I was raised in the city and felt that the whole family (people AND animals) had to live inside. I got Frankie while we were in the city, he lived indoors for 2+ years but after that, he started marking all the rooms, howling constantly, darting between our legs to get out the door, and putting up a huge fight if we tried to put him in a bedroom and shut the door so we could unload groceries, etc. It's just not happening. We had him neutered as soon as we got him, approx. 8 weeks old, per the vet's recommendation at that time. Considering that we have lived here 8 years and he is still on the porch, I think I'm pretty safe in saying that he is not likely to roam.

Yes, we have ants in the summer. Do you not have ants where you live? I feed Sammie on the dryer but the kittens aren't likely to reach that. Their canned food on the floor is a major attraction for ants here. I feed them inside at night and wash out the bowl but during the day I sit outside with them, feed them, and play for a while. There are ant beds in our yard and yes, they do like to find their way indoors. Do you know of a way to keep them down? We've tried poisons, bleach, boiling water, you name it. I'm open to suggestions.

I understand that you have to advocate a perfect situation but there is just no way that is going to happen here or in many other homes with pets. Maybe my posts read different than my intent but your standards seem to raise the bar to unreachable heights. Do you truly think that the kittens and my kids are swarming with ants??? Come on now! Thanks for the advice but I really don't need a lecture on how to raise my kids/kittens/dogs/cats in sanitary, safe conditions. Maybe the ALL CAPS and !!! add a little too much emphasis to be taken seriously.

Now, having said all of that, I know you don't know me from a hole in the wall but I can assure you that I would not jeopardize ANYONE or ANYTHING that I consider my family and fully intend to keep everyone out of harm's way to the best of my ability. That's about all I can say to reassure your fears but I guess you'll have to believe what you want to believe. Thanks once again for being there when I needed some guidance.

[lmd]

As for ants, I have stopped them. We don`t have all that many, but I find that sprinkling rotenone and diatomaceous earth powders around all entrances like door sills, etc, will get them as they enter or leave, and eventually there are none. I put the mixture powder under baseboards, also. This gets them when they hide. None of the pets are exposed to the chemicals, but they are not toxic anyway. They are also not expensive.

[Traci]

You mentioned you have ants in the laundry room, the room you keep the kittens in, and that you have them outdoors, and now, that you're feeding them outdoors. This just doesn't make sense to me. You do realize, don't you, that young kittens need to be fed several times during the day, because they expend lots of energy, they need to replenish that energy. With all the pets and the kids, do you have that much time to devote to taking them out to feed them several times a day? That's my point, devote another room to them, where when eventually (in another few weeks when they are ready for dry food) you should be leaving dry kitten food out for them, etc.

I'm not intentionally trying to be condescending here or anything, I'm simply encouraging a better environment for the kittens. I don't know where in your home your laundry room is located, or the condition of the floor, baseboards, doors, etc etc, but if you have ants in this room or any other room in your home, you simply have to address that. Are there cracks and crevises in a cement floor? Are floorboards and other wood deteriorated and neglected? Are doors kept open all the time? Are windows kept open or sills damaged, etc? Address these areas and you won't have an ant problem. Destroy ant hills outside near entry doors, sprinkle a line of red pepper in front of the door threshold, but under it so pets cannot get to it.

Diatomaceous earth powders are not without risks to pets, they are like tiny shards of glass and if ingested or inhaled, this can cause serious respiratory and lung problems in both pets and humans. Also some owners don't bother to know the difference between food-grade and pool-grade powders, the latter detrimental.

[Bama]

Actually I mentioned that ants would get in the canned food if I left it out, not that they are lurking in the laundry room waiting to pounce, which is what you seem to suggest. The ants only come inside when they smell something enticing.

"You do realize, don't you, that young kittens need to be fed several times during the day"

I do find the above quote condescending.

I've given 4 cats a home 1000% better than they came from, I've prevented unlimited amounts of future litters being born in an unsafe environment, have stated that I intend to neuter and either keep or find good homes (not shelters or rescues) for these guys and do feel that no matter what I do, it wouldn't be enough for you. You seem to be of the opinion that I live in a wooden shack, doors and windows wide open, with huge cracks in the floors, ants by the millions...sounds kind of like the barn where I found them. I don't have a huge bank account or a huge house to set up entire cat rooms but my home is pretty nice, we even have indoor plumbing and air conditioning!

[Bama]

Thanks, lmd! I'll have to do some research. We're trying to go as green/organic as possible with everything from our vegetable garden to our house cleaning supplies so I'm investigating everything I can!