4 week old kittens Questions and help please

[mamabear]

I am copy and pasting this for a woman on another forum that Tambrey and I frequent. Her name is Bama she is having registration problems. So I'll post this here till she can get in here and talk herself.

I have "adopted" 4 kittens. I'm guessing they are about 4 weeks old, they are running around, can eat my cat's food if I add water to it, they stick their nose in the water bowl but aren't really sure how to drink it yet although they lick my finger when I wet it, they did use the litter box this morning although I'm not sure if that was just good timing on dd9's part (they had just eaten) or do they really pick up on it that quick? I'm not sure where they were born or the conditions, they have been living under an old lawn mower in some bushes for at least a few weeks, near a lot of feral cats so who knows what they have been exposed to. Their eyes are a little matted looking...I've been cleaning with warm water on a paper towel and they look a lot better today. I have tons of questions, my cats are over 10 years old now so it's been awhile, and can't afford a vet visit for everyone so am hoping for some help here. I called our local animal rescue only to find out from the message that they are closing at the end of this month. I was hoping to find a vet or fund to help with the care. There are a lot more cats/kittens/dogs at this location that I would like to have spayed/neutered and possibly find homes for but I'm at a loss.

*do you worm kittens? Can I buy this at a pet store or do I have to go to a vet?
*should they eat canned food as opposed to dry?
*when and what vaccinations do they need?
*when can you spay/neuter? when do they have their first heat? It's 3 girls and 1 boy so I don't want to wait too long.
*I know some of you are on a pet forum but I can't remember what it was...what is the website?

That's all I can even think to ask right now. Any help is appreciated!

THANKS!

HERE IS THE OTHER POST FROM HER AS WELL

I'm having a little trouble registering with the cathelp site and have another question...

I have one inside cat...the kittens are sharing her litterbox and food/water bowls. It was late last night when we got home and I guess I wasn't thinking clearly. I put the grown cat outside for the morning (she was NOT happy!) and let the little ones keep all the supplies. Should I keep them separated or would it be okay to let them continue sharing and just worm/treat my older cat with the kittens to make sure she doesn't catch anything?

[Traci]

At the risk of repeating anything, what was already advised?

[mamabear]

Here are quotes from people who posted....

Bama, thumbs up for taking the kittens in!


*do you worm kittens? Can I buy this at a pet store or do I have to go to a vet?
Yes, kittens should be wormed – but not all pills that can be used for adult cats are good for kittens too. Here, I would buy them at a vet’s office over the counter – just the price of the medication, no other fee, but I don’t know how this works in the US. Do ask if the medication is suitable for kitten. The timing should be as follows:
1st worming – at 2 weeks
2nd worming – at 4 weeks
3rd worming – at 6 weeks
4th worming – at 3 months and further every 3 months.
It is important that kittens get wormed – otherwise they might have severe problems.

*should they eat canned food as opposed to dry?
I have only done dry food for kittens – but I always use the age appropriate type

*when and what vaccinations do they need?
Don’t know what is necessary in the US, but I generally get my indoor cats the following:
1. rabies
2. infecitious panleucopenia
3. inf. Rhinotracheitis
4. calicivirosis (these three tend to be in one vaccine)
5. chlamydia psittaci
First vaccination is around 9-12 weeks, revaccination 2-4 weeks later (no revaccination for rabies), and then every 12 months.
When my cats become outdoor cats, I will add FELV vaccine to the above, but I understand that it is expensive and that my kittens are my kids.
No FIP vaccine here (eventhough I did lose a cat to FIP, as all that I have read about it convinced me that it is not worth it.

*when can you spay/neuter? when do they have their first heat? It's 3 girls and 1 boy so I don't want to wait too long.
First heat can occur somewhere around 6 months, cats can be spayed as soon as they can make it through the anestesia – which my vet says is 4.4 pounds weight test. For male kittens, it might be advised to wait longer as there is a correlation between urinary problems and early neutering, but my vet (who specialises in cats) follows the opinion that this happens only with cats who have a disposition to that (as the % is not that different to cats who were neutered later)

*I know some of you are on a pet forum but I can't remember what it was...what is the website?
Not me, unfortunately.

I'm having a little trouble registering with the cathelp site and have another question...

I have one inside cat...the kittens are sharing her litterbox and food/water bowls. It was late last night when we got home and I guess I wasn't thinking clearly. I put the grown cat outside for the morning (she was NOT happy!) and let the little ones keep all the supplies. Should I keep them separated or would it be okay to let them continue sharing and just worm/treat my older cat with the kittens to make sure she doesn't catch anything?

They shouldn't share the litterbox - it is a very private thing for a cat and with that many cats, you should have at least two litterboxes anyway.

Also I would be very conscious about not allowing too much contact before the kittens are vaccinated - and quarrantined (they could, after all, be carrying whatevers). What is your domestic cat vaccinated against?

Do you give your older cat any kind of preventative, like Revolution? If so, I wouldn't worry about worming, otherwise, I would. I put food grade diatomaceous earth on my cats' food and this will take care of worms, too. A bigger concern would be feline leukemia, since that is contagious through sharing food and water dishes.

We adopted a kitten for Christmas (surprise from DH to me & DK's) this year. Vets in my area discount (or some do for free) the spaying/neutering etc when you take in a stray. Call around and see if you can find a vet (try animal control for a referral). The only tip I can add is that I clean my cat by wetting a douny fabric softner sheet. After taking the cat in we found that ds8 was allergic The woman at the shelter told me about the sheets and they keep the dander down and the cat smells Fabulous . We also use dry food - that is what was recommended by the shelter. When we took her they gave us a voucher to have her spayed and said we could wait til August, but we are going next week because she was making some crazy noises and it was the first sign of being in heat - so once you hear the cat's being very vocal, spreading & raising their heind quartes, and rubbing (suggestively ) on people, objects etc... It's time to have the spaying/neutering done.Good Luck

Bama, I copy and pasted your posts to the catforums.
http://www.cathelp-online.com/health/kitten1.php

There is a link that you should be able to use even if you are not registered. That will help you with the kittens.

Please please keep the kittens safe but away from your cats. If your cats have not been to a vet and are not current in their vaccines they are at risk of anything that the kittens. Your adults should not be anywhere near or using anything that the kittens had. a bleach solution can help clean up what they have touched. But keep them in one room or somewhere the others dont go and no using eachother litter boxes. the kittens can use one but do not share with the adults at all. worms and disease can be transmitted.
What i posted here from the catforums is on the left hand side under kitten care. there is a lot of info there so you can use that.
This is what I can do right now, i'm sure tambrey will help once she sees this.

Bama Had somemore questions and she posted them, she did say she was able to register it was just he firewall she had...

I am copy pasting her post so when she sees this she can breathe a sigh of relief that she doesn't have to retype what she already did since we know how VEEEEEEERY busy she must be taking care of these babies...

Thank you all! I've been calling local rescue groups and gotten a lead on a cat coalition that will help with the expenses of spaying/neutering if I will find homes for the cats. Most of the population is feral, I'm hoping my sil will help me catch them so I can get them fixed, and then they will probably be released back where they are now. It's really sad. There are several more batches of kittens that I can't catch, they hide in this rotten barn and I'm scared to go too far in to get them. A lot of the cats have eye discharge, that's the only visible illness I can see, who knows what else is going on internally. There are also 3 dogs, 2 I can catch, 1 I can't, that I am going to try to help. The biggest problem I have right now is that I am in one county and they are in another county...my county doesn't want to help another county when they are working on their own solution, I totally get that, everyone I have spoken to has been very nice. I don't have any contacts in the other county but I'm working on that too.

We went to Petsmart and got some supplies...food, wormer, toys, stuff for their eyes. I think they are a lot younger than 6-8 weeks...their eyes aren't really focusing well and they are not eating dry food. They try to eat it but it's just too big and hard, they do get some down when wet but prefer me to feed them with my finger. I'm hoping I won't have to buy a bottle and formula, for now I just got dry and canned kitten food for 1 month and older. They do like to climb (my legs ), are vocal, and somebody is using the litter box...kinda hard to tell who with 4.

I have to go cook and then I'll check out the cat forum. I had to disable the firewall to get in but now I'm in. Thanks for the offer and see ya there, mamabear!

I think I'm pretty clear on my questions now. My new questions are:

*How do I keep these kittens and keep them away from the wild rabbits in the yard?

*What if I get chickens in the future? Will this be a problem?

I'm hoping a lot of people attention will keep them calm and pretty tame and that will solve these 2 questions. My other cats are very well behaved so they can set the example.

Also, my cats are caught up on everything but I may still slip a little of this wormer in their food. What can it hurt?

[mamabear]

Traci sorry for all the posts, I just wanted to make sure I didn't forget what others wrote with a summary so i copy/pasted instead.

Hope you are doing well !!!!

Bama, what you are doing is good. Please make sure you are able to handle this. This is a road that some go down and find themselves deeper in the poor house then they thought they would be. Not saying you shouldn't do this, just letting you know that it can get pricey and want to make sure you dont take on more than you can chew.

Traci will help with the kittens. You are in good hands hon. Prayers!

[Bama]

Hi, I was able to register...had to disable the firewall. Thx to whomever sent the email help. Thanks to mamabear for posting for me!

So far, this is what I know or have done...

*I bought a liquid wormer at Petsmart...is this acceptable?

*Got kitten food, dry and canned...am hoping they will eat the canned, they aren't too keen on the dry and they weren't weaned when we brought them home. It was a now or never situation, they come from a feral colony and I doubt if we could catch them in a week or two. They are biting my fingers and nibbling on the dry food when moistened. I haven't given them the canned food yet, my daughters have them outside playing so I will feed them in a little while. Should I still get some cat formula?

*Got "Opticlear veterinary eyewash", contains boric acid, edetate disodium, sodium borate, sodium chloride, sorbic acid. Each kitten has a discharge in only one eye which already seems to have cleared up some just by taking them away from their surroundings. Can I use this for a couple of days and if it doesn't work, then get an antibiotic cream from the vet?

*Re spay and neuter, I'd rather wait as long as possible since they are so tiny and anesthesia is scary....maybe spay/neuter in 2 months? I only worry about them coming into heat b/c one is male, the other 3 are female, there are no other cats around here to worry about. How do you tell if a cat is in heat?

*I did get a name and phone number of a woman who has a cat coalition, it's main intent is to capture, spay/neuter feral cats and then release them back where they were. I'll try to get in touch with her tomorrow and see if she can help me. The feral colony is in a different county so there are limits to her aid. If she can't help, I'm hoping she can give me some names of people in the other county who can help with costs of spaying/neutering if I will capture, bring in, help financially as much as I can, and release the cats where they will be fed and watered.

*Re: vaccinations...what can I get by with? I know there are some dangerous diseases that these cats are probably more prone to considering their situation, but it's not like I can catch them annually for shots. I may keep the 4 kittens, my daughters are already pretty attached and they are really sweet and tame considering where they came from.

*I want to keep the kittens...the biggest thing holding me back is them being from a feral colony and:

1) we have wild rabbits in the yard and I don't want them run off or harmed.
2) I want to have chickens one day and not worry about the cats attacking them.

[Bama]

I thought I had lost that last post...it was from several hours ago and my computer froze up.

Update: the kittens gobbled up the canned food, I mixed in some dry and the d-wormer. They are now happily sleeping in one big furball. I'm waiting for a bowel movement to see if they are actually having them and if there are worms.

I hope all of this makes sense. I just want to help them out without messing anything up.

Thanks in advance!

[Tina B and crew]

Hi bama...thanks for taking in the little kittens...

I can't speak for Traci but I'm pretty sure she'd agree that over the counter dewormer should NOT be used. Only meds RX'd by a vet should be used. I'd hold off on giving any of the dewormer until Traci weighs in.

And definitely keep the kittens separate from your cat until they have been tested by a vet. Of course a vet visit is crucial to diagnose what is causing the eye discharge. I know it can be costly but it really is the only way to deal with it.

Best of luck!

[Bama]

We'll have to have a vet visit soon but I'd like to put it off for at least a week if possible, and then may only be able to afford one kitten at a time. It will get done but if you can think of anything I can do in the meantime, please let me know. I did give some of the d-wormer with their meal.

Thanks for responding!

[Tambrey]

Bama....most vets will work with you on payments...especially for adopted ferals....ours takes post dated checks....check and see if yours does....and try to get them all in ASAP....

And I agree....worming medicine is best left to a vet....it goes by weight etc....

You may have to stimulate them to go potty....a cotton ball in warm water rubbed gently over the genital area...be sure you are holding them over the toilet when you do this!!!!....I usually "palm" them....lay them belly down with legs hanging over either side of my palm and supporting their body....

only CLAY litter...no clumping litters....

[Traci]

Mamabear, thank you so much for taking the time and effort to copy and paste everything, I'm glad you did, because some of the information is not correct.

Bama, I'm the one who emailed you, glad you got the IP thing figured out!

It is best to keep the kittens seperated from any of your resident cats, this is a safegaurd for all the cats, since you don't know the true health status of the kittens, nor do we know the vaccination and health history of your resident cat(s). Are your cats current on their vaccinations?

Do NOT use OTC dewormers for kittens or any cat, ever, they are ineffective and sometimes dangerous, especially for kittens without immunity to disease. Do not give them any more of the dewormer you've already given. Make sure you tell your vet the product given, the date, the amount for each kitten so he can take this into consideration when he gives the proper dewormers. Your vet needs to deworm them properly with effective deworming products he has at his clinic, and to weigh them so that doseages can be calcluated correctly for each kitten. Deworming is usually only necessary one time for a young kitten, but it would be prudent for them to be dewormed with StrongidT from your vet first, then a week later, Droncit for roundworms, given once. Again, these products MUST be based on kittens' age, weight and overall health status, that will be determined by your vet.

Since we don't know the true ages of the kittens, do not feed dry at this point in time. If they are only 4 weeks old, they are not ready for dry food, their teeth are too tiny to be able to crunch dry food right now and you're right, some kitten food kibbles are just too large for them to manage at this age. Most of us here highly recommend Iams canned kitten food. You MUST watch each kitten and ensure they are able to eat solid food (like the canned), if one or more isn't able to now, it means they are not ready and must be fed/supplemented with kitten formula, we recommend KMR kitten formula in the dry form to be mixed (follow label directions) and use kitten nurser bottles and nipples, they can be obtained from most pet stores and vet clinics. You must pierce the nipples as they are not pierced when packaged.

Another thing you can try is adding small amounts of mixed KMR formula and drizzle it over canned Iams kitten food in a shallow plate and let the kittens get a feel for it, and allow them to taste it etc. They will make a mess with this but it's to be expected, don't worry about that. The important thing is that they are eating and appropriate amount, several times a day. It's also important they urinate and defecate after each feeding. If they are not doing so on their own, you will have to aid them with Tambrey's instruction she posted. Use a clean moist cotton ball for each private part and clean cotton balls for each kitten!

Don't expect them to drink water, they won't, and usually don't and don't display interest in water until they are around 6-10 weeks of age. You can keep a shallow dish of water available, but make sure the dish is shallow!

Don't use the Opticlear you bought, keep it on hand for after your vet visit, but do not use it at this point until you've seen your vet. It is probably too harsh for their young eyes, and it would be better to use a warm, moistened gauze pad and gently dab excess debris and discharge from their eyes. Do this at least twice a day, but be gentle, and be sure to wipe from the corners, this helps prevent spread of existing bacteria.

It's highly possible they have upper respiratory infections, eye discharge is common with this. This demands immediate veterinary treatment, your vet will give you antibiotic opthalmic ointment to apply, and he may give you oral antibiotics carefully dosed for each kitten. Left untreated, upper respiratory infections can worsen considerably and cause fatalities because the kittens are immunocompromised and have no immunity against disease processes.

As for spaying and neutering, this can be done as early as 3 months of age, or, when they are of a proper weight at that age and healthy. Your vet will determine that for you. I recommend pre-anesthetic blood work on all of them prior to any anesthetic procedure.

Females can go into heat as young as 3 months of age. Common signs of heat include amorous behavior, sudden change of behavior, constant vocalization, clingyness to you or her siblings. Not all females display signs of heat and you may not notice any at all, but that doesn't mean they don't have heat cycles, because they do! It is important to keep males away from an intact cat while in heat. It's just as important to get them spayed BEFORE or directly after their first heat so that their risk of cancers can be prevented, the same applies to males.

The kittens need to be tested for FELV before vaccinations, but this test cannot be done on kittens younger than 10-12 weeks of age. That is the same age they can receive their first kitten vaccination series, except Rabies, which I recommend at 6 months of age, but your vet will determine if they can recieve rabies vaccinations earlier. Vaccinations that should be given are a series of FVRCP and FELV, 4 weeks apart. After the series, an annual when they are a year old, should be given for each.

Your vet would probably be willing to reduce some costs for you, since their are 4 kittens and one exam for all 4 kittens could be one exam price. Treatments and procedures might need to be seperate, but if you ask nicely and explain the situation and your desire to help the strays and ferals, he might just be inclined to reduce your costs. If not, call around for other vets in the area who will, and for price quotes on services.

As for rabbits and chickens, well, common sense prevails. They are natural enemies to that degree. If you live in a rural area or rural property (like a farm or such), and if the kittens are vaccinated, spayed/neutered in a timely manner, fed well and taken well care of, they may not be interested in chasing rabbits, and probably wouldn't cause harm, but chickens are another story. Cats view them as birds and you can't prevent them from wanting to catch and eat them, and they will try. Keep the chickens in a coop, inspect fencing around the coop so the cats cannot get in, etc. In the same respect, if you are going to have chickens, you have to ensure they have plenty of room to "flock" about outside of their coops.

Whatever you do, do not take any kitten or cat to a shelter or no-kill animal shelter (some who purport they are no-kill actually are not what they claim). Talk to rescue organizations, those who work diligently on keeping the pets available for adoption and keep the pets UNTIL adopted.

The most important thing you must do for these kittens is get them to your vet immediately. A week is much too long, they've been exposed to too many things, and you don't know what. They are at a tender young age where they are susceptible to many viruses, bacteria, disease, and the sooner they are checked by your vet, weighed, fully assessed and their eyes treated properly, the sooner they will be on their way to good health and disease prevention started! Please know that tiny young kittens are just too susceptible and once infected with something, they can fail in a matter of hours to days, don't take that chance!