"Holistic" pet foods discussion

[pixiemaxiris]

I visit another forum specifically for German Shepherd Dogs that is frequented by many experienced breeders and owners/handlers of working and show dogs. The vast majority of them recommend "holistic" pet foods, such as Innova, Solid Gold, Timberwolf Organics, etc.

I've read the ingredients lists for many of those foods, and compared them to the ingredients found in foods traditionally recommended by vets (Eukanuba, Science Diet to name two). I have to admit, the ingedients in the holistic foods do sound more appealing and more like what I'd want my dog to eat. And yes, I realize marketing is a huge factor for petfood manufacturers...

It just seems to me that these foods recommended by breeders and competition/working dog owners have higher quality animal protein sources and fewer "questionable" ingredients (by-products, high starch content, non-specific animal protein sources, chemical preservatives, etc.).

Take Timberwolf Organics, for example. Here is their guaranteed analysis and ingredients list for their Wild and Natural dry dog food:

PROTEIN: 36%
FAT: 18%
FIBER: 2.5%
MOISTURE: 9%
ASH: 5%
Kcal/kg: 3,980
OMEGA-6 FATTY ACIDS: 3.4%
OMEGA-3 FATTY ACIDS: 1.2%
CALCIUM: 1.4%
PHOSPHOROUS: 1.1%
VITAMIN A: 22,000 IU/KG
VITAMIN D: 1,200 IU/KG
VITAMIN E: 350 IU/KG
COPPER: 16mg/KG

Ingredients: Chicken Meal, Fresh Chicken, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract), Low Ash Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract) Eggs, Dried Chicken Liver, Dried Whole Milk, Dried Whey Extract, Kelp, Hydrated Alfalfa Leaf, Casein, DL Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, Taurine, Lysine, Carnitine, Choline Chloride, Creatine, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation, Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Enterbacter Faecium Fermentaion Product, Bacillus Subtillus Fermentation Product, Blueberries, Cranberries, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.


And for comparison, here is the guranteed analysis and ingredients list for Eukanuba Large Breed Adult formula (picked LB only because I have a GSD):

Nutrient (percent)
Crude Protein not less than 23.00%
Crude Fat not less than 13.00%
Crude Fat not more than 16.00%
Crude Fiber not more than 5.00%
Moisture not more than 10.00%
Vitamin E not less than 140 IU/kg
Omega-6 Fatty Acids not less than 2.4%*
Omega-3 Fatty Acids not less than 0.3%*
Glucosamine not less than 375 mg/kg*
Chondroitin Sulfate not less than 35 mg/kg*

Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken By-Product Meal (natural source of Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine), Fish Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Flax Meal, Vitamins [Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid], Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dicalcium Phosphate, Choline Chloride, Minerals [Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate], DL-Methionine, Dried Chicken Cartilage (natural source of Chondroitin Sulfate and Glucosamine), Rosemary Extract.

In comparing the two foods, it seems that Eukanuba is extremely grain-heavy, especially when you consider that the first ingredient "chicken" is chicken in its natural state, with all its included moisture. When you take out the moisture, the actual weight of the "chicken" is far reduced and should be placed further down the ingredients list. Add this to the fact that the next three ingredients are grains, and this clearly becomes a grain-based diet. All that I've learned (both in my animal nutrition courses and through independant study) says that a quality dog food should be based on animal protein. How, then, does Eukanuba fit into the picture of a meat-based diet?

Granted, the TWO food that I quoted above is a specifically grain-free diet, marketed as such, and not all holistic pet foods are grain-free. In fact, most do contain grains. But I'm just trying to understand why, when our dogs and cats are carnivores by design, we feed them such grain-rich diets? Wouldn't it be better, nutritionally speaking, to feed diets that are higher in animal protein than Eukanuba and Science Diet?

I really am interested in a discussion on this topic, so I hope you can provide me with valid points for your particular food choice.

Thanks!

[davet]

only discussion that i have is that feeding these exotic diets are just a waste of money...but it is not my money so I don't get involved..I used to reccoment to tell clients that they go to the grocery store and pick ourt a brandm, ie a well know brand, and feed it..if the dog doesn;t like ity try another.....I reccomended this for 45 years and never saw a patient that had a food problem except occainionallan allergy or diarrhea.....still feed my own dog store food...the put subject dogs on these diets for yearsd...just my opinion

[Tambrey]

there is not scientific PROOF that holistic is really any better than store bought foods...and in fact...many of the ingredients in holistic foods for pets can do more harm than good becuase they do not suppliment as the dog or cat needs...then you need to end up giving additional suppliments that you must buy from the holistic dealer in order to make up for those deficits...

a good brand like IAMS or Eukanuba and such will give ALL of the nutrients that your pet needs to sustain itself...

[Marty]

I was gonna stay out of this, but I prefer a food that is meat based rather than corn based. We gradually switched Buffy from Iams to Blue Buffalo and have noticed a huge difference in her coat quality. Nuff said...

[mamaof4soon]

Yep I was going to stay out of it too BUT well you all know me.

Ok well first ingrediant on the so called "holistic" is Chicken meal and the first ingrediant in the Eukenuba is Chicken. Um that would make me want to buy the Eukenuba over the other at first glance. Now personally I dont like Eukenba but there are others out there that are good that I like.

As mentioned in a previos post, there is no proof that holistic is better. Just because something says its holistic means squat. I personally have German shepherds myself and feed raw But i do not recomend it and will not discuss it. I am also a nutrional consultant for Science Diet for about 15 years now and wont just say that that is best either. I beleive that a good quality diet is best and if you notice your animal not doing well on one then pick another. I would never go by a label taht said Holistic or "all natural" It IS all commercializing and that is that. You pay more per ounce for something that is labeled holistic or natural and if you want to waste your money then do so.

I will tell you this though, you need to consider your type of dog, what he will be doing and what his life will consist of. If he is going to be lazy and hang out all day and go out to pee pee then get a diet that suits that life style. If he is going to be a working dog and in a cage at home but walked a few times a day and working or in house for a bit or what ever then get a diet that suites that style. You need to consider the breed as well and hips and all of that.

I dont think you put this out here to just say that it was best to be holistic, i am sure you are tyring to just get others opionions on this issue. We do tend to feed what our breeders feed and that can be fine but make sure you do your homework first as you have done and rememnber that marketing comes to play here, your breed does as well and the lifestyle they will lead. Know your dog well and always check for ticks, if you live in a place that doesnt have ticks check them anyway atleast once a month. Iknow I bet your asking why would she say this...ahhhh becuase when you take the time to touch your dog and know everyone area on his body it will help you detect any problems that might later come up. I have always done this with my dogs and caught many things on them just becuase I knew that wehre I was touching didnt feel right. O it could just be a tick too LOL ROFL.....

Good luck with this and remember as your dog grows and ages that you should rechck the food to make sure it is suited for that time in his life.

[pixiemaxiris]

Ok well first ingrediant on the so called "holistic" is Chicken meal and the first ingrediant in the Eukenuba is Chicken. Um that would make me want to buy the Eukenuba over the other at first glance.

Ok, WHY would you choose to go for the "chicken" vs "chicken meal". Being a nutritional consultant for Science Diet (you mean the Hills Co., right? Or just Science Diet itself?) you must have a good reason for that. My understanding is that chicken meal is the chicken meat in a more dehydrated form, thus, a concentrated source of animal protein. Chicken all by itself is just raw chicken with all its moisture...so therefore the concentration of nutrients is diluted by the water. Therefore, foods containing chicken meal actually have a higher concentration of animal protein than foods containing just chicken as the first ingredient.

As mentioned in a previos post, there is no proof that holistic is better. Just because something says its holistic means squat. I personally have German shepherds myself and feed raw But i do not recomend it and will not discuss it.

I know better than to buy a food based on what the label claims. I thoroughly analyze the ingedients list and guaranteed analysis of all foods that I am interested in. I've made choices based on those ingredients and GA's that I wouldn't have made based on looking at the pretty packaging alone. There are a lot of "holistic" foods that I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole, and there are many that don't look very different from the traditional Eukanubas and Science Diets. I have researched raw feeding and feel that it is a good way to feed certain dogs in certain households...but it is not right for me and my dog and my household. Truthfully, I would feed a home-cooked diet if I could afford it. I have a BS in Animal Science with many nutrition courses in my past so I feel reasonably comfortable formulating a diet that would be balanced. I don't think the average pet owner should try it, though.

I would never go by a label taht said Holistic or "all natural" It IS all commercializing and that is that. You pay more per ounce for something that is labeled holistic or natural and if you want to waste your money then do so.

Based on the ingredients I listed previously, I would feel like I'm paying more for a higher quality food. But others may disagree and that's fine. I know people that feed their dog Beneful or Pedigree or some other such food that I feel is total cr*p and their dog does just fine so the argument could be made that one is wasting their money buying Eukanuba or Science Diet when a grocery store brand is a cheaper alternative.

I dont think you put this out here to just say that it was best to be holistic, i am sure you are tyring to just get others opionions on this issue. We do tend to feed what our breeders feed and that can be fine but make sure you do your homework first as you have done and rememnber that marketing comes to play here, your breed does as well and the lifestyle they will lead.

Agreed. That is why I post more often on the GSD board because everyone there owns GSDs and many have years and years of experience working with, caring for, and breeding these dogs and I take their food suggestions seriously (most of them anyway). I do tend to be highly suspicious of anything "holistic" or "homeopathic" because they typically don't have the scientific research to prove their effectiveness. But doctors are always touting the benefits of a diet filled with wholesome ingredients like raw fruits and veggies, whole grains, and lean meats. This is a diet closer to it's "natural" state, and so for me it stands to reason that our beloved pets' foods should also be as close as possible to their "natural" state. And if feeding raw or homecooked isn't feasible, wouldn't the next logical alternative then be to use a commercial pet food made from more "natural" ingredients? I put that in quotations because one does have to be careful not to be duped by the label, as "natural" has no true definition as far as pet food marketing goes. For example, I saw in the grocery store today that Purina Dog Chow has a "natural" line of food...I quickly looked over the ingredients and didn't see much difference at all from the regular Dog Chow.

Just my musings, and yes I wanted to get others' opinions. Like a true scientist, I try to keep an open mind. For the record, I'm currently feeding my dog Nutro Natural Choice Adult Lamb & Rice, and my cats are in transition from Nutro Natural Choice to Felidae. But they don't seem to care for the Felidae so I may be going back to the Nutro for a bit until I find something else they will like.

Oh, and they all have what I feel are dull coats from the Nutro.

[Tambrey]

This link might give you more information and insight as far as natural and holistic foods are concerned....this is linked off of our disclaimer page, which everyone (should) read before agreeing to membership...but of course, we always don't do that....so just reference back to it on occasion

http://www.cathelp-online.com/health/articles.php

and if you want to read other disclaimers and information, here is the link for those
http://www.cathelp-online.com/disclaimer.php

[mamaof4soon]

Thank you Tambrey was looking for something like that to post here.

Everyone has their own reasons for choosing foods they want or dont want. It us up to the owner to do their research and take that into considereation when buying the food, the type of breed also plays a huge role in what to get.

Good luck.