Traci (anyone else too)more on Gizmo's aggressive behavior

[Tina B and crew]

I'm kinda at my wits end....I think I'm going to call tomorrow and get him an appointment with the vet just to be on the safe side, but I don't think anything is wrong physically. He seems to have a split personality at times. We can go for days without any "altercations" and then all of the sudden he becomes a thug And it's not just Willow he's doing it to...he went after Frodo this morning with such ferver it was scary. The fur that flew was unbelievable. Afterward I found blood on the floor and I had picked Frodo up and taken her into the bedroom to get her away from him and notice blood on the bed after I put her down. Can't find any injuries on her, she isn't limping and he didn't get her ears or nose so I don't know where it came from.

Now he's just laying in the floor chillin', like nothing ever happened He's been playing more the last few days too...and I've given him tons more attention (if that is possible!) It's like he went through a personality change after his hepatic lipidosis because before that he was the sweetest most gentle cat I ever knew..we use to kid that we didn't think Gizmo would hurt a flea. And he doesn't treat Khanada like he does Willow and Frodo. Gizmo is the only male in the house.

Do you have any insight for me? We've tried homeopathics and Bach Flower remedies with some success (seriously)...I'd prefer drugs to be a last resort (I was threatening him..jokingly of course..with Prozac this morning!) I went to petsmart to get one of the Comfort Zone thingies....but they were out. Thanks.

[Traci]

I don't recommend drugs either. As for the other remedies, assuming you're giving them on a frequent basis, (don't get upset), but you might want to ask your vet if any of the BF have any known side effects, such as aggression or restlessness. For example, buspar, a common drug used to treat anxiety disorders in cats, can leave a side effect of either agressiveness or submissiveness/that spaced out feeling; and BF, herbs or other such can have the same effects. Some of them do have the exact same properties as a prescription drug. Just run by your vet what you've been giving or have used in the past, he can look it up for any known or suspected side effects.

I don't recommend prescription drugs in your case simply because I believe he is stressed from the recent changes in the home. From what you've written, it would seem that the more attention you give him, the more relaxed he seems to be. But, he knows all the new kittens are there, he can smell their scents, he hears them, and most male cats are more curious about new kittens than female cats are. He could be acting out against Frodo and the others simply because he is frustrated. (either because you've seperated him from them and he doesn't get a chance to check them out, or because he wants to interact with them). Don't forget, he can also smell their scent on YOU after you've played with them or fed them, etc.

I'm not sure what I could recommend to solve the problem. Other than getting a kiddy play pen (enclosed) so he can view and check out the kittens, but not hurt them. Plus, you don't have them tested yet, so you have to be careful there. What are all the females doing when he decides to chase and harrass them? What is HE doing right before those episodes? Is he already relaxed? Or is he bored? Do the females act curious about the kittens too? If so, Gizmo may be trying to establish his heirarchy! Can you think of other things in the environment that trigger the behavior? (times of day, changes in routine, etc)

[Auntie Debbie]

and outside of my links I wish I could give some good advice. The only real aggression I've had to deal with is when Razzeratz sees a "chase the prey" on tv involving the big cats and he tries it out on Sals. He goes far and beyond the usual playfight routine and gets this really weird look about him, LOL! I agree that a vet check is a good idea to be on the safe side. Maybe Traci is right about the kittens scent frustrting him.
Hope you can get him to calm down soon.

[Susan and the girls]

I agree with both Traci and Auntie Debbie. I think Auntie Deb summed it up in two words once when my kitties were attacking each other when SweetPea was inside. "DISPLACED AGGRESSION" Do you think that's it?

Believe me, I know how frustrating it is when you can't seem to convince them to get along. (I dealt with that the whole time SweetPea was inside.) Fortunately/unfortunately (however you want to look at it), I was able to let SweetPea go back outside, where she has been as happy as a lark. (I hate having her out there, but it's night and day difference around here for all of them.)

I know you don't exactly have that option, so it's even more frustrating.

I hope things get better, and I'd definitely look up the Bach Flower herb to see if there's another side effect you hadn't known about. Makes me wonder if it's a little like the color pink -- Years ago, there was a big stir about how the jails and detention centers had a PINK room to send their disagreeable/raging detainees because studies had shown that a certain shade of pink was calming. Then they realized that there was a slight problem with all their theorizing..... Too much pink increased the aggressiveness! They had to time the detainee's stay in the pink room just right, or they'd have a devil on their hands! Maybe that's what Bach Flower's doing? Who knows. (That's just my brain making up another one of my famous analogies...)

Anyhoo..... keep us informed on how things are going, ok?

[Tina B and crew]

I hope this doesn't get too long But here's some history on Gizmo. He will be 11 next month...Frodo is his mother. He's been with us since day one, was neutered before he was one year. Like I said previously he was always the most gentle loving cat (except he would get a little over stimulation aggression at times). He's always been indoors.

When Gizmo was almost 2 we moved into a new house...all was fine until a few weeks after the move and Frodo went beserk. We think she saw another cat out the window and had the most horrendous case of displaced aggression and she attacked Gizmo in the most violent manner, slashing his nose and tongue. We had to keep him and Frodo apart for almost a month...if Frodo even saw him through the glass or felt his presence through a door she would let out a screaming growl. We eventually managed to get them to be in the same room, and even to the point where Frodo would groom Gizmo...however she would do it in a very rough manner and when she was finished she would swat him, hiss, growl and run. On occasion she would go after him like a bat out of hell and swat the snot out of him. Gizmo avoided Frodo and would even cower when she came within a few feet of him, yet she would still groom him.

This went of for a few several years...Frodo obviously the top cat and Gizmo quaking in fear at her. The only thing the caused it to ease up was Frodo's scare with saddle thrombis.

About a year after that (maybe two) we adopted Khanada. Gizmo and Frodo didn't take to her at first, but she weaseled her way into Gizmo's heart eventually...she is the only cat that Gizmo tolerates now. A few months after Khanada came into the picture Gizmo developed the hepatic lipidosis...I attribute it to the stress of a new cat, his having to lose weight (this was very stressful on him because he lives to eat...always has and still does!) and believe it or not the Sept 11 tragedy. It wasn't until 9-11 that he really started getting depressed. But he made it through the HL...and seemed fairly normal afterward. One thing we did notice was that he chased Frodo...but he never attacked her, just chased her. Of course she would make such a fuss that we were sure our neighbors could hear it!

Our first foster litter came into the house a year ago....the cats seemed to do OK...just some hissing when the saw them in the carrier. Gizmo actually never showed much interest at all. He still doesn't. Willow came around last summer....Gizmo didn't even notice her for at least 2 months..they would walk right by each other and not even look.

Then he just started attacking her...we don't know why...vet check revealed all was OK physically. We seperated them for a while, treated him with homeopathics and BF remedies...reintroduced them and things were OK, although Willow would cower at his site. After we quit the BF remedies things were OK for a month or two then we noticed Giz starting to stalk Willow again...then he started attacking her...back to the vet...alls OK..more remedies but this one didn't work as well. I did pick up another one the other week, but he hasn't been on it that long.

So...Gizmo put up with years of "abuse" from Frodo...we wonder if that has anything to do with it.
He is the only male
He is the biggest cat
He attacks both Willow and Frodo but not Khanada (Willow and Frodo have both had litters...Khanada was spayed at 5 months)
He has not curiousity about the kittens
His stalking patterns actually started happening before we ever had fosters (with FRodo)
He attacks even at the times when there were no fosters in the house (we had a break from Nov-April and he did it then)
His chases are clearly not in play....there is a determined look, almost a predatory look on his face and his posture is one of determination not play.

OK...not the I've written a thesis on Gizmo's behavior....any more ideas?

[MA]

I would try a few things with him. I would have interactive play time with just him, with a toy on the end of a fishing pole, at least 15 minutes of play with him, sometimes cats that are aggressive, are this way because their energy builds up inside,and they are bored, and the pressue just goes haywire and they get aggressive. I know with the new ones that I get here that are turned over to me for aggressive behavior, they love the game of find the furry mouse on the end of the fishing pole, and it calms them down over time. I keep the pole in a special closet, and now, everytime I open that closet, the three males come running thinking it is time to play.

I would also provide (if you haven't already) cat condos and cat ramps so that he can get higher than the other cats and feel more secure.

When he attacks where is his tail? Are the hairs on the base of this tail puffed up and his whiskers flat? Those are surefire signs of high agression and not play. When and if you make changes in his enviornment try and go it gradually so he won't stress out. Sometimes it takes a lot of detective work to figure out what is causing a cat to lash out in anger, but if you are thorough, you can usually find the trigger. I remember hearing a story one time about a lady whose cat was attacking anyone he could while he was sitting under her living room window. They couldn't figure out why and they finally called in an cat behaviorist. She found out that where the cat was sitting, the drapes were hitting him across the back and causing him to be uncomfortable. They got rid of the drapes and had a happy cat from there on in.

[Tina B and crew]

Thanks MA...we do our best with the playing...Gizmo has never been much of a player. You can sit there with all manner of toys and try to get his attention and he just looks at you like "why are you bothering me?" About the only think he has ever shown interest in are those large rubber bands from broccoli stalks. We shoot them across the room and he fetches them, throws them up in the air, bats them around (we take them away when we aren't supervising him)

As far as kitty condos go...our house isn't that large so we don't have much room for them. Gizmo does however like to go into my closet and sleep, so I've been letting him go there. I am looking at ways to put hiding places in for them to hide.

As far as his tail goes...it's tough to tell if his fur puffed out or not because he has such a large furry tail. His ears aren't back, he seems to be puffing himself up to look larger. Actually he reminds me of a guy getting into a fight..you know when they face each other and raise their shoulders....saying "come one....I'll take you!" It's definitely an aggressors stance.

FWIW..he's been pretty good for the last two days

[Pat S.]

My only male (neutered) gets that way, too. He's my only cat who goes outside, but only with supervision. I won't let him out unless I can be with him, and if he wants out and I have to go to work, he beats up Amanda and chases her around the house. It's just his way of getting out his frustration. Nobody is ever really hurt, but fur does fly sometimes. I've noticed, though, that when I rescue Amanda and comfort her, she goes right back to William, asking for more!