Bladder Stones

[Candycane]

Hi all,
This looks like a great board! I found a link on another forum that I frequent and figured that someone here may be able to help me out. Here's the history. At 6 months, (Jan. '00) my female Sydney, went in for her spay and vet #1 found urine in her blood. Suspecting a UTI, he gave me Baytril to clear it up. The Baytril made her horribly sick and on the vet's advice, I took her off after only 3 days. I didn't know that this vet was so wrong at the time. Her diet at that time was Nutro Kitten. Next infection (Apr. '02), vet #2 gives her amoxcillin which clears up the infection. After this recurrance, we start feeding her wet food mixed with water and also supplementing with acidophilus. She was eating Nutro Complete Care at this time. Next infection (Sept. '02), vet #3 gives her Clavamox and the infection goes away. Next infection (Jan. '03), vet #4 gives her Amoxcillin and does a full urinalysis. She is eating Innova now. Everything came back normal, no crystals, specific gravity and pH are normal. He suggests an X-ray and finds nothing. Next infection (Sept. '03), vet #5 (my old vet that I used before I moved away) gives her amoxil. The infection seems to clear up but comes back 3 days after the meds are finished. My vet puts her on Baytril, no adverse reaction this time. We also take blood to test for diabetes and also look at her kidney function. The results come back normal but she is slightly anemic. We put her on an iron and B vitamin supplement. We retest her values and she is no longer anemic. She is now on Visorbin twice a week to stay healthy. So, the Baytril has the same effect as the amoxil. The infection comes back 3 days after the 2 week course. At this point, my vet thinks it may be a chronic infection and gives her anti-inflammatory injections along with Cefa-Drops. This is working fine for three weeks (until the day of her last injection) and then she gets worse again. We schedule an ultrasound with one of his colleagues. 4-6 small stones were found in her bladder. Urinalysis is done again and my vet said that phosphate crystals were found and that her pH needs to be higher. Are phosphate stones similar to calcium oxalate stones? He suggests a prescription food because they are small. I have been looking into prescription foods and have been slightly disappointed with the quality. So far I have found, Waltham's, Hill's, Purina, Eukanuba, and IVD. Are there any other brands of prescription foods other than the ones I just mentioned? My bf and I have discussed the possiblity of having them removed and we are really considering it if the success rate of the food isn't high. She has been continuously sick for over two months and we want her to get better. So I guess I'm just looking for advice/experience/opinions on this whole situation. Sorry for such a long post!

[Candycane]

I forgot to mention. Syd is currently eating Innova, and she gets Precise, California Naturals or Eagle Pack wet food. We have three water bowls for her and also a Drinkwell Pet Fountain. Now that we have found stones, we are switching to distilled water. She gets no table scraps and very few treats (maybe a little piece of dried liver once every two weeks).

[Traci]

Yes, phospates can be comprised of triple phosphates,... amorphous phosphates, calcium and oxalate. Since your vet has defined oxalate, your prescription diet has to be one spefically for oxalates only, as opposed to struvites.

As for the prescription diets, you can't beat them with any other product on the market, including anything you're feeding now. Prescription diets are formulated specifically for the condition in mind, and feeding anything outside of that Rx diet WILL defeat the purpose, so hold off on treats, or anything else outside of the diet alone. Also, do NOT use additional acidifiers or anything of the sort while using a prescription diet, this can lead to worsening, increased oxalates (the Rx diets are formulated per acidic or alkaline purpose)

I would be less concerned about the ingredient quality than the actual purpose of the diet. Proper diet plays a critical role in managing FLUTD and all types of stones, and again, you're not going to get that benefit from any other diet for this condition. Don't let stories and biased opinions get in your way of sound nutritional support for the condition in mind.

Your vet has managed thousands of cases like this, trust his judgement, and follow his advice, he knows the veterinary diets are proven to work, knows the condition of your kitty and what to expect.

[Candycane]

I would be less concerned about the ingredient quality than the actual purpose of the diet.

If it comes down to it, I will use one of the brands mentioned above but doesn't anyone else make a prescription diet free of by-products and/or man-made preservatives? I know that these diets have worked for other owners, but I would prefer to feed something with higher quality (IMHO) ingredients. I live in a very small town and my vet hasn't managed thousands of cases like Syd's...that's sort of why I am here. I definitely trust his guidance but I also like to do my own research so that I can make informed decisions and fully understand why he recommends one treatment over another.

[jason]

my rocky had struvites loads of struvites enough to block him up twice. i have had him on hills cd/s dry and no longer has the crystals at all. during the 2-3 month ordeal, he had infections so was on baytril as well as some other meds to reduce the inflammation.

i am 100% behind the science diet formulas, have been using the adult regular with my other cat and she is doing great as well. the price at petsmart for adult and my vet for cd/s is not too much more than the really good (pricy) ones at the dept stores, and its alot cheaper (and also more enjoyable for the cats) then the alternative.

[Candycane]

Like I said, I don't doubt that they work...I was just hoping that someone would be able to recommend a different brand. Both the dry and canned x/d have by-products near the top of the list and use corn. The dry x/d is preserved with BHT and BHA and has brewer's rice as the first ingredient. I know that protein should be reduced for cats with oxalate crystals but there are definitely higher quality grains that could have been used. Other than that, the food looks great.

Jason, I'm assuming that Rocky had surgery to remove the stones? We are thinking of foregoing the food as a treatment and going with the surgery (depending on what my vet thinks). We will need to provide a preventative diet after that. Syd has been dealing with this for so long, that we are anxious to get her back to health...but are we being too anxious?

[Traci]

Candice, I understand your desire to be proactive for your cats, however, don't dismiss the invaluable research that has gone into the veterinary diets. After so many years, no one has been able to match them, why play with fire?

Speaking from experience, and because I work with these diets, I can tell you with confidence that your options with a more "natural" approach are few and far between. If you get to the point where you can safely and effectively MANAGE this condition somewhere down the road, then by all means, discuss the options with your vet at that time, but for now.....you cannot afford to be taking risks. If one diet specifically will do the job without surgery, I'd say you would be utilizing the best option available to you. If surgery is necessary to remove the stones, you may still be faced with managing for chronic urinary tract infections, hematuria or development of crystals again. In the majority of cases, once a problem associated with FLUTD, the risk for future occurances rises. A good management diet is the key to hope for success.

And since you've seen 4 or 5 vets already, I naturally assumed you'd chosen the one more experienced, hence he has probably managed more cases than you are aware of. It is a common condition that every vet faces on a regular basis. (unless they are large animal practitioners, in which feline medicine is probably moot to them)

As for diets, since you're in Canada, IVD in the US is the equivalent to Medi-Cal in Canada. Personally, I would recommend Hills' Rx or Purina's veterinary management diets, but each cat is different as it pertains to palatability, and that's a very important aspect when considering the correct diet. Your vet (or other vets in your area) should be able to give you trial samples of one or more of the Rx diets for you to try with your kitty, she'll let you know which she prefers, and your vet can recommend based on clinical experience, response to current treatment approach, etc.

[jason]

Jason, I'm assuming that Rocky had surgery to remove the stones? We are thinking of foregoing the food as a treatment and going with the surgery (depending on what my vet thinks). We will need to provide a preventative diet after that. Syd has been dealing with this for so long, that we are anxious to get her back to health...but are we being too anxious?

no, he had no such surgery...it was totally blocking his urethra and was thought to be covered in his bladder, a p/u was done to allow the crystals to flow better and not only did the cd/s rid his crystals but i have had him back for a few tests and no more crystals have returned...so its a preventative as well.

i have talked with two other clients at my vets' office who use cd/s (or some other hill prescription food for crystals/stones) and plan on using it for the life of their cat given its ability to do what its designed to do.

[Candycane]

Thanks for the info on IVD...that was one of the foods I was very interested in, but my vet couldn't get it here. As for my vet, he is mostly a large vet practioner...in fact, the only time he is really in the office is when I have an appointment. He said that he will try to order any food that I would like, hence the reason I came here asking for brands. The order will be going in tomorrow morning so I am hoping to have a food picked by then.

[Candycane]

Any idea where I could find an ingredient list and guaranteed analysis for Purina Veterinary Diets?