i think this can be posted here cause it is medical related

[davet]

but if not, then powers that be can move it.

A topic of discussion

I womnder how people feel about this subject, ie the practice surgery on live animal in veterinary school. My first year in vet school we sacrificed goats and learned anatomy on them , then we went to prepared and un prepared dogs and cats, cows and horses, which were sacrificed for that reason.

Second and third year surgery we used pound dogs that we first did incisions on, then spays then laporotomies, etc ,etc…the last surgery was a limb amputation, after which we euthanized the dogs rather than have them wake up…these were dogs that we kept as pets till the last surgery….it was not fun..but now days there is talk about learning surgery on simulators ($700’000 each), which I guess is OK but when you have to go in and look for a specific nerve or vessel with massive hemorrhage around, or any of the many things that you run into in real life surgery, it is not the same..i know with externship you do learn a lot of surgical applications but if the person you are working with is afraid to allow you alone or even do the cutting without previous learning experience you do not learn…

Boils down, would you like a new your vet even spay your pet, or do leg amputation or eye enucleation without ever having done it or seen it??

I am not stating a position but just questioning, it is like having a new eye medication out that has only been tested on computers, would you be wwilling to let it be used on your pet…..

[Yzma]

I'm inclined to think that it's a personal decision, for the students, the clients and the employer of the students. But i'm also wondering if these simulants are going to become an educational standard? or are they merely available in some schools?

If the animals in question were scheduled to be destroyed anyway, then I do think that unless someone expresses an interest in taking them home as a pet... then perhaps their being destroyed wouldn't have been entirely invain if some medical student somewhere was able to learn something first...

But on the other hand if the simulants were extremely true to life, i would personally prefer to know that they were being used instead of healthy animals... If I were a student, i'd only want to use a real animal if i knew for sure that there were no other options...

Of course as things get better, the number of available animals is obviously going to decline, but that'll only be in a couple of hundred years, and i'm sure the future will be a very very very different place.

Who knows...

[Traci]

Boils down, would you like a new your vet even spay your pet, or do leg amputation or eye enucleation without ever having done it or seen it??

My Cuddles was one such case with her amputation...my vet on call at the time had never done an amputation procedure, it was just her and I....got an excellent text out, put it on surgery table and took it from there. She recovered beautifully.

Same with some of our other vets...never having encountered an enucleation on emergency, you learn in a hurry. It's like you always say, Davet, when you're alone faced with such decisions, you do the best you can and give it your all. (usually always turns out good)

I am not stating a position but just questioning, it is like having a new eye medication out that has only been tested on computers, would you be wwilling to let it be used on your pet…..

Most of my cats have undergone just that...If there is trust in the vet's ability, knowledge, common sense and comittment to the task, then by all means, the odds are in your favor (or the patient's). From experience, at least with my own vets, they've been exceptional.

Another thing.....consider the practice owner/vet....is it not his/her responsibility to oversee the first procedures, assist, teach, etc, until he/she is confident the new vet can work on his/her own without doubts.....Not giving them the chance, and not allowing them into unforseen situations, well, they won't learn a thing.

[davet]

all you said is very true, once you have done an enucleation or amputation it gets to become relativly easy, or easier,,You can teach a monkey to do a spay but it is when you hit a bleeder that a little learning takes effect...when i went to the hospital Friday, the power was out which again reminded me of doing a catarac operation when my electricy went out...had to finish up with a flashlight in my mouth....this was the old days where you pahysically took the lens out...that was a learning experience...I guess this is tantamount to a physician never haveing had to participate in Med school for a birth delivery...sure could give one the anxieties when that first situation came up....

[k9Karen]

I'm afraid I can't condone it. I considered vet school, but back then it would have been a terrible uphill battle - still very male dominated and I was not the type to fight "tradition". I love animals, and the decision to become a vet would be from that strong feeling. I would be mortified if I had to intentionally harm or destroy any animal in order to 'learn'.

As for simulators - a good way to learn the basics, but certainly not a way to experience every possibility. That said, I don't know of any profession that allows you to experience every possibility during the training phase. I've been a Med Tech for 27 years, and I still come across things I've never seen before.

There must be a happy medium somewhere. I can't believe vet schools don't have enough business to allow students to be properly trained. If they need to learn how to spay - offer it free! Spay for the pounds and shelters and rescue agencies. I have to believe that there is a way around this without harming the animals one is learning to help.