I posted before about our lab mix, Maggie, who will be 14 in April, and her seizures. (http://www.cathelp-online.com/forums/viewtopic.php t=12294&highlight=maggie+seizure)
She is having less "time" between seizures--here's what we've noted:
July 14 at 2:30 a.m.
Nov. 14 at 2:23 a.m.
Jan. 5 at 2:13 a.m.--at 3 minutes, she was still seizing so we have the valium
Feb 1 at 4:50 a.m.--lasted just under 3 minutes & stopped abruptly, rather than "fading out" movements
Feb. 15 (this morning) at 2:41 a.m.--lasted about 2 minutes--stopped abruptly
The only pattern I notice is that these seizures have generally occurred during the wee hours of the morning, and generally as described in my original post. Nothing has changed environmentally. She is continuing on her dose of 48.6 mg of phenobarbital twice a day.
We did no further tests to find the etiology of these seizures. Other than the seizure and recovery time, she remains interested in watching the neighborhood through the fence, barking at the mailman (I think she can still hear loud noises), is very "bouncy" when its time for the morning or evening meal, and seems to have her regular cognitive abilities.
I guess I just wanted to post because I'm kinda scared about the more frequent seizures -- it seems that she is having fewer and fewer days between seizures, and eventually, we'll have to say good-bye. I don't want to be all doom and gloom, and I don't want to be too much of a Pollyanna either. Should we expect daily seizures down the road, or cluster seizures, or really, it's a best guess at this point?
Thanks for listening!
Less "time" between seizures
Re: Less "time" between seizures
What is your vet telling you and have you sought a second opinion?
That would be my next step if Maggie were my dog. Also, again, I would test baseline bloodwork to see where you're at, as well as an xray. You want to rule out the possibility of some underlying condition that could be going undetected or perhaps worsening, unchecked.
If possible, get another level done to determine doseage adjustment if necessary.
I'm more than curious now why her seizures keep happening in the morning hours, something is going on there, perhaps a new vet can tell you more. Please, give him a full account of what your home environment is like during those hours, everything you can think of.
Discuss adding KBr if you haven't already.
Just a rule out, do you often feed her too close to bedtime?
Have you changed anything about the environment, routine, etc etc?
That would be my next step if Maggie were my dog. Also, again, I would test baseline bloodwork to see where you're at, as well as an xray. You want to rule out the possibility of some underlying condition that could be going undetected or perhaps worsening, unchecked.
If possible, get another level done to determine doseage adjustment if necessary.
I'm more than curious now why her seizures keep happening in the morning hours, something is going on there, perhaps a new vet can tell you more. Please, give him a full account of what your home environment is like during those hours, everything you can think of.
Discuss adding KBr if you haven't already.
Just a rule out, do you often feed her too close to bedtime?
Have you changed anything about the environment, routine, etc etc?
..........Traci
Re: Less "time" between seizures
Hi, Traci, and thanks for your response. We have a consult with our vet tomorrow and blood work to check her "levels" of PB--the last time was done, it was at the upper limit of therapeutic levels for her weight. We'll ask about KBr.
Are you thinking an x-ray of ???? where??? Her brain?? Her spine? ?
In the evenings, they eat at 7:00 pm. We go to bed around midnight, sometimes later. Nothing has changed in the environment or our routine, and during the hours between dinner and bed time, she and the other two dogs have free access to the outside back yard either by steps or ramp. They all do their business when they have to, then come inside to be with us. If they *hear* someone walking by, or a car pulling into our driveway to turn around, they will go outside to bark at the intruders.
After dinner, if I'm making lunch for the next day or puttering in the kitchen, she is an opportunist and tries to levitate food from the counter to her mouth (lol)--just by intensely watching the food prep, that's what I think she's trying to do.
Also after dinner and before bedtime, Maggie will lie on her "pillow bed" or in her doggie bed that's in the living room with us. Sometimes, she'll get up on the couch for a nap, and on the couch, she'll be next to us while we read or watch TV. She'll get up to get water from the kitchen, come around for a head pat, or her favorite, a bit of a scratch on her rear end above her tail (she loves it!) and then decide where to lie down.
I, too, am struck at the times of the seizures. In human dementia (and possibly Alzheimer's patients?), there is an effect called "sundowning" when the individual functions better in the mornings than the evenings. I have not found anything about dogs and seizures in the wee hours.
Are you thinking an x-ray of ???? where??? Her brain?? Her spine? ?
In the evenings, they eat at 7:00 pm. We go to bed around midnight, sometimes later. Nothing has changed in the environment or our routine, and during the hours between dinner and bed time, she and the other two dogs have free access to the outside back yard either by steps or ramp. They all do their business when they have to, then come inside to be with us. If they *hear* someone walking by, or a car pulling into our driveway to turn around, they will go outside to bark at the intruders.
After dinner, if I'm making lunch for the next day or puttering in the kitchen, she is an opportunist and tries to levitate food from the counter to her mouth (lol)--just by intensely watching the food prep, that's what I think she's trying to do.
Also after dinner and before bedtime, Maggie will lie on her "pillow bed" or in her doggie bed that's in the living room with us. Sometimes, she'll get up on the couch for a nap, and on the couch, she'll be next to us while we read or watch TV. She'll get up to get water from the kitchen, come around for a head pat, or her favorite, a bit of a scratch on her rear end above her tail (she loves it!) and then decide where to lie down.
I, too, am struck at the times of the seizures. In human dementia (and possibly Alzheimer's patients?), there is an effect called "sundowning" when the individual functions better in the mornings than the evenings. I have not found anything about dogs and seizures in the wee hours.
Re: Less "time" between seizures
The only thing I can think of is perhaps her internal core body temperature changing during those hours, but this is a long shot. We also talked before about perhaps giving the larger dose of the two daily doses, in the evening, ask your vet about that again.
I know I've asked before, but just humor me, try to think hard about any stimuli that could be occuring that might be effecting her during those hours.
Do you leave a nightlight on near her sleeping area? If not, ask your vet if it might be helpful to add a nightlight (dim). Maybe she's waking up in the middle of the night, and for some reason is fearful or nervous (another long shot, but since she has diminished hearing, you never know)
Xrays to at least start evaluating organ function (looking for enlargement, fluid, or masses), and xray of the spine can also be done, although if looking specifically for a spinal problem (or brain lesion), an MRI would probably be better. Xrays are simply good practice when you have a serious condition going on and in absence of other diagnostics.
Hopefully, either an adjustment of meds or the addition of KBr might help. It can be difficult to pinpoint potential triggers, but the main thing is initially ruling out organ disfunction or potential mass (although it doesn't necessarily sound like a mass).
It sounds like you trust your vet, but if you feel more could be done in terms of diagnostics, and/or if you could afford to, an MRI might be helpful, at least discuss it with your vet, or consider a second opinion. The latter a difficult decision, since many seizure cases are idiopathic, hence the frustration. One thing is for certain, the meds have to be re-evaluated and possibly adjusted because whatever the cause, the seizures need to be controlled. At least they are still short-acting, and that she responds to valium when necessary.
Please let us know what you find out tomorrow?
I know I've asked before, but just humor me, try to think hard about any stimuli that could be occuring that might be effecting her during those hours.
Do you leave a nightlight on near her sleeping area? If not, ask your vet if it might be helpful to add a nightlight (dim). Maybe she's waking up in the middle of the night, and for some reason is fearful or nervous (another long shot, but since she has diminished hearing, you never know)
Xrays to at least start evaluating organ function (looking for enlargement, fluid, or masses), and xray of the spine can also be done, although if looking specifically for a spinal problem (or brain lesion), an MRI would probably be better. Xrays are simply good practice when you have a serious condition going on and in absence of other diagnostics.
Hopefully, either an adjustment of meds or the addition of KBr might help. It can be difficult to pinpoint potential triggers, but the main thing is initially ruling out organ disfunction or potential mass (although it doesn't necessarily sound like a mass).
It sounds like you trust your vet, but if you feel more could be done in terms of diagnostics, and/or if you could afford to, an MRI might be helpful, at least discuss it with your vet, or consider a second opinion. The latter a difficult decision, since many seizure cases are idiopathic, hence the frustration. One thing is for certain, the meds have to be re-evaluated and possibly adjusted because whatever the cause, the seizures need to be controlled. At least they are still short-acting, and that she responds to valium when necessary.
Please let us know what you find out tomorrow?
..........Traci
Re: Less "time" between seizures
Hi, Traci,
The increased dose in the evening is something I had thought of asking about too. We do have a little 4 watt night light that we leave on all the time because there's no sense having her wake up "deaf" and blind as well.
The only "noise" that I can pinpoint is DH's very low dB white noise sussuration from his c-pap breathing machine, which she is not likely to hear. There are no car alarms or ambulance/sirens, honking or motorcycle start-ups/revs or anything going on (unlike the area where I grew up many many years ago!).
There are not flashes of headlights coming through the shades or curtains, the temperature stays pretty steady, no plug-in air fresheners in that room, the room is carpeted, & we haven't moved the furniture around for years (hey, when it fits, it fits!). I'm still thinking and trying to figure out what might be unusual environmentally, and am coming up with bupkis.
Thanks for the info about what the xrays might show. Yes, I'll keep ya posted !
The increased dose in the evening is something I had thought of asking about too. We do have a little 4 watt night light that we leave on all the time because there's no sense having her wake up "deaf" and blind as well.
The only "noise" that I can pinpoint is DH's very low dB white noise sussuration from his c-pap breathing machine, which she is not likely to hear. There are no car alarms or ambulance/sirens, honking or motorcycle start-ups/revs or anything going on (unlike the area where I grew up many many years ago!).
There are not flashes of headlights coming through the shades or curtains, the temperature stays pretty steady, no plug-in air fresheners in that room, the room is carpeted, & we haven't moved the furniture around for years (hey, when it fits, it fits!). I'm still thinking and trying to figure out what might be unusual environmentally, and am coming up with bupkis.
Thanks for the info about what the xrays might show. Yes, I'll keep ya posted !
It's 12:36 a.m. on Wed now, even though somehow my post shows it being much later. Ahhh, computers!
We just got back from the Veterinary ER, where Maggie is spending the night. She had another seizure at 10:41 pm, and at the 3 minute mark, it showed no signs of stopping so we administered 4 mL of rectal valium. We waited a minute but she was still seizing, so we administered the other dose we had of rectal valium. She seemed to be coming out of it after that, but continued to have facial "tic-ing" (ictal tics??) so off we went to the ER.
They are keeping her overnight and giving meds as needed through an IV. Will keep you posted.
We just got back from the Veterinary ER, where Maggie is spending the night. She had another seizure at 10:41 pm, and at the 3 minute mark, it showed no signs of stopping so we administered 4 mL of rectal valium. We waited a minute but she was still seizing, so we administered the other dose we had of rectal valium. She seemed to be coming out of it after that, but continued to have facial "tic-ing" (ictal tics??) so off we went to the ER.
They are keeping her overnight and giving meds as needed through an IV. Will keep you posted.
Re: Less "time" between seizures
Update on Maggie: Chest x-ray is normal. Phenobarbital levels are within normal limits so the vet said we could up it to two tabs, twice a day (instead of 1.5). Each single tab is 32.4 mg. Our vet suggested holding off on the KBr for now--we should have more test results tomorrow (Fri).
Maggie is not panting, drooling, or whining. Her appetite is good. She is drinking a lot more water, but again, that's probably because of the Pb.
Since being on Pb last year, Maggie has a lot of weakness or uncoordination in her back legs, most recently to the point of actually collapsing about 6 times today when she was walking or standing.
We've put carpet over the hardwood floors, thinking that might give her more "purchase" rather than sliding on the flooring. A number of years ago, she had bilateral ACLs done.
Her back knuckles drag as she walks--we can see her dragging the top of her feet along the floor as she walks, the right side more so than the left.
She spends a lot of time walking around the house--this is not like the post ictal period where she spends about 90 minutes walking around and going into corners after a seizure... she is just walking around the house. When she walks around the house, she comes over to us and gives us a couple of kisses as we pet her.
Her tail has a marked kink in it.
I'm kinda worried, of course. I'll post more when I have more info.
Thank you!!!!
Maggie is not panting, drooling, or whining. Her appetite is good. She is drinking a lot more water, but again, that's probably because of the Pb.
Since being on Pb last year, Maggie has a lot of weakness or uncoordination in her back legs, most recently to the point of actually collapsing about 6 times today when she was walking or standing.
We've put carpet over the hardwood floors, thinking that might give her more "purchase" rather than sliding on the flooring. A number of years ago, she had bilateral ACLs done.
Her back knuckles drag as she walks--we can see her dragging the top of her feet along the floor as she walks, the right side more so than the left.
She spends a lot of time walking around the house--this is not like the post ictal period where she spends about 90 minutes walking around and going into corners after a seizure... she is just walking around the house. When she walks around the house, she comes over to us and gives us a couple of kisses as we pet her.
Her tail has a marked kink in it.
I'm kinda worried, of course. I'll post more when I have more info.
Thank you!!!!
Re: Less "time" between seizures
Can you remind me, when was Maggie's last blood profle done? (NOT the phenobarb levels, but a chemical blood profile)
Did that bloodwork show anything unusual?
Was blood and urine glucose checked? (i.e., for diabetes and/or diabetic neuropathy or peripheral neuropathy)?
When the xray was taken, did the vet see and evaluate her spine? Any slipped discs or compression? (i.e., nerve/disc compression can cause such symptoms)
About the knuckling, is the vet aware of this and if so, did he do any reflex and nerve testing?
When you say a lot of walking around the house, is she walking, or is she pacing, as if nervous?
Can you determine if she is painful somewhere? When you pet her, does she flinch in certain areas? (neck, spine, hip region, bladder area)
Have you considered asking your vet to consult a specialist on your behalf?
Did that bloodwork show anything unusual?
Was blood and urine glucose checked? (i.e., for diabetes and/or diabetic neuropathy or peripheral neuropathy)?
When the xray was taken, did the vet see and evaluate her spine? Any slipped discs or compression? (i.e., nerve/disc compression can cause such symptoms)
About the knuckling, is the vet aware of this and if so, did he do any reflex and nerve testing?
When you say a lot of walking around the house, is she walking, or is she pacing, as if nervous?
Can you determine if she is painful somewhere? When you pet her, does she flinch in certain areas? (neck, spine, hip region, bladder area)
Have you considered asking your vet to consult a specialist on your behalf?
..........Traci
Re: Less "time" between seizures
The blood work is under "total health screening" and those results won't be back until Tues, since Mon is a holiday. Her last chem blood profile was done in July 2010, I believe, and it showed slightly elevated liver enzymes. Blood glucose levels were normal, not sure if they did a UA for glucose levels. We have not brought the recent knuckling to the vet's attention --my fault.
Maggie seems to be walking, rather than pacing as if nervous. If we are walking about or doing laundry or cooking, she'll follow us and stay near rather than walking. When we're sitting, she walks around and eventually seems to settle and lie down.
She doesn't flinch when we pet her anywhere, and she doesn't seem to be in pain.
Our recent home repairs for a number of *must-be-fixed-now!* items since Dec has been in the thousands of dollars, and my DH has multiple disabilities. Maggie's overnight in the ER wasn't expected, so that was a surprise too. Sometimes it just takes all the running can do just to stay in the same spot.
Thank you so much for all the input so we can work within our budget and do what we can for our girl. I'll keep you posted.
Maggie seems to be walking, rather than pacing as if nervous. If we are walking about or doing laundry or cooking, she'll follow us and stay near rather than walking. When we're sitting, she walks around and eventually seems to settle and lie down.
She doesn't flinch when we pet her anywhere, and she doesn't seem to be in pain.
Our recent home repairs for a number of *must-be-fixed-now!* items since Dec has been in the thousands of dollars, and my DH has multiple disabilities. Maggie's overnight in the ER wasn't expected, so that was a surprise too. Sometimes it just takes all the running can do just to stay in the same spot.
Thank you so much for all the input so we can work within our budget and do what we can for our girl. I'll keep you posted.