Hi traci and all!
I haven't dropped in for quite a while - life is so busy! I hope you are all well!
I have a question re a little puppy, maybe 7 weeks old, which I rescued from the street. It is as follows, sorry it's a bit long, I'm trying to describe the situation:
I'm feeding and taking care of the stray dogs in our small street. I vaccinate and spay/neuter if possible (not all are tame enough to allow to be touched, injected etc, but I try). So there are a couple of dogs I was not able to vaccinate, including one black dog.
This dog bit the puppy badly last Saturday, which is when I took the pup in. Someone must have dropped him off here, I didn't know he was there until we heard the screaming. When we ran out we found the pup lying on the side on the road, screaming, blood everywhere, and the unvaccinated black dog on him. We chased him away and took the pup inside. The vet came and gave emergency treatment for shock, then later when the pup had stabilised, antibiotica, wound cleaning, etc. The little guy also broke his leg in the attack and lost a lot of blood. He is still recovering with us, but is getting better every day! Thank God for that.
As soon as he looked a bit more alive again we gave him rabies and tetanus shots (8 Dec), and dewormed him (10 Dec).
Taking a closer look at the black dog, I noticed that he looked not well at all. He looked skinny, dirty, refused food, only drank water. He also kept attacking the other street dogs. There is often some kind of struggle because of food and territory, but usually the street dogs manage to sort it out between themselves without any major incident. This time was different. The black dog kept attacking dogs and they were all scared of him. He never was a cuddly dog, but I had not seen him before in such a viscious manner! But he continued being friendly to me, licking my hand sometimes.
Over the next few days the vet tried to examine him but he wouldn't let anyone close. Since he also had a wound on his nose and a swelling we mixed antibiotic under his food, but he wouldn't eat. I tried it with diluted milk + antibiotic, he took only one sip, I soaked dry food, he wouldn't touch it. Within 4 days he looked close to death and sure enough this morning I found him dead.
So, we have been wondering what happened to him, what disease did he have? Especially because he bit the pup who was not vaccinated then. Could it have been rabies? He did not drool and bite randomly.
Hence my question is: could the black dog have had any of the other deadly diseases which are covered by vaccination (for example distemper?)? Can we vaccinate such a young pup twice in one week?
Thanks for reading and for any advice!
Ash [/b]
Pup bitten by sick stray dog - vaccinate now?
Re: Pup bitten by sick stray dog - vaccinate now?
Depending on exactly how much treatment and medications the pup had and how he is recovering will depend on when he should be vaccinated. You truly do not want to tax the system with vaccinations in a young animal when there has been trauma such as this requiring extensive surgery, anesthesia, medications. You want shock treated, fluids maintenance, antibiotic therapy, extensive wound cleaning, anesthesia clearance from the body, and some indication of rapid recovery before vaccination.
However, given the unknown status of the adult dog, it was probably more prudent to get the rabies vaccination and tetanus, although rabies given at such a young age might present some reaction and major pain in the area of the injection. If he's recovering well, you can go ahead with the distemper vaccination, but you'll need to booster it in 4 weeks, with a third booster, 4 weeks later. If the pup is now at home with you recovering, you need to watch him closely for vaccine reactions, wounds that don't seem to be healing well in a timely manner, weight loss, etc.
It's hard to say about the adult dog. What are the most common canine diseases your vet treats in your area, take into account that India is much different in the US with climate, availability of vet care and vaccinations, the number of stray untreated/unvaccinated dogs in the area, etc. It could have been parasite burden, starvation/nutritional deficiencies, organ failure, hit by car or toxin ingestion, the possibilities are endless. I won't say not distemper, but I'd say probably not rabies. Distemper is rapid, with symptoms progressing rapidly within a few days if left untreated, he wouldn't have had the energy to attack and be agressive if he had distemper. Probably not rabies, as the symptoms are not hard to identify: weakness, incoordination, disorientation, extreme nervousness and extreme vocalization, inability to eat, and the appearance of being fearful of water. Frothing at the mouth and agressiveness or biting are sometimes mistaken for signs of rabies, these symptoms rarely occur. Drooling occurs due to severe dehydration (and the animal's fear of or inability to drink water), but the disease is so progressive that lethargy and weakness don't allow the animal to be too agressive. The agressiveness toward the other dogs could have been because he might have been abused by humans, fearful, establishing territory or food source, probably was unneutered, or was in pain due to injuries etc.
For what it's worth, if the adult dog licked your hands within the last two weeks, you better not have had any open wounds that came into contact with his saliva. Again, it's doubtful of rabies, but I'm not there and don't know exactly what kind of shape he was in before he died. If it were rabies, if you had any open cuts or wounds on your hand that came into contact with his saliva, you better get a rabies titer done on yourself ASAP (like TODAY).
However, given the unknown status of the adult dog, it was probably more prudent to get the rabies vaccination and tetanus, although rabies given at such a young age might present some reaction and major pain in the area of the injection. If he's recovering well, you can go ahead with the distemper vaccination, but you'll need to booster it in 4 weeks, with a third booster, 4 weeks later. If the pup is now at home with you recovering, you need to watch him closely for vaccine reactions, wounds that don't seem to be healing well in a timely manner, weight loss, etc.
It's hard to say about the adult dog. What are the most common canine diseases your vet treats in your area, take into account that India is much different in the US with climate, availability of vet care and vaccinations, the number of stray untreated/unvaccinated dogs in the area, etc. It could have been parasite burden, starvation/nutritional deficiencies, organ failure, hit by car or toxin ingestion, the possibilities are endless. I won't say not distemper, but I'd say probably not rabies. Distemper is rapid, with symptoms progressing rapidly within a few days if left untreated, he wouldn't have had the energy to attack and be agressive if he had distemper. Probably not rabies, as the symptoms are not hard to identify: weakness, incoordination, disorientation, extreme nervousness and extreme vocalization, inability to eat, and the appearance of being fearful of water. Frothing at the mouth and agressiveness or biting are sometimes mistaken for signs of rabies, these symptoms rarely occur. Drooling occurs due to severe dehydration (and the animal's fear of or inability to drink water), but the disease is so progressive that lethargy and weakness don't allow the animal to be too agressive. The agressiveness toward the other dogs could have been because he might have been abused by humans, fearful, establishing territory or food source, probably was unneutered, or was in pain due to injuries etc.
For what it's worth, if the adult dog licked your hands within the last two weeks, you better not have had any open wounds that came into contact with his saliva. Again, it's doubtful of rabies, but I'm not there and don't know exactly what kind of shape he was in before he died. If it were rabies, if you had any open cuts or wounds on your hand that came into contact with his saliva, you better get a rabies titer done on yourself ASAP (like TODAY).
..........Traci
Thanks Traci! 
The pup did not have surgery. The leg was put in a splint (is that what you call it?), so he can't bend it, and the wounds were cleaned and disinfected daily. They are healing well, and the leg is also healing. He is doing well, eating, playing, having his toilet, trying to chew everything in his reach etc
It's remarkable how well he recovered after he looked more than half dead on Saturday. He was very lucky, the bites missed all major structures in his throat, neck, leg and belly, and only caused damage to skin and muscles.
He had a second rabies shot today, the vet said 3 shots in all should be given. After that we will give the 7-in-1 vaccine next week. I didn't know that a booster for the 7-in-1 is needed after 4 weeks, and a third one. Is that the usual procedure, or only after suspected exposure?
My vet couldn't say what was wrong with the black dog. As he didn't look young, it could have been liver or kidney failure, he said, or cancer, or a blockage in the stomach, or an infection gone out of hand ... it's impossible to tell.
In any case, we don't take chances and vaccinate the little one.
I was myself already vaccinated for rabies years ago, and have already made an appointment with my doctor for a booster shot tomorrow.
So I hope we all get alright through this trying time!
The pup did not have surgery. The leg was put in a splint (is that what you call it?), so he can't bend it, and the wounds were cleaned and disinfected daily. They are healing well, and the leg is also healing. He is doing well, eating, playing, having his toilet, trying to chew everything in his reach etc
It's remarkable how well he recovered after he looked more than half dead on Saturday. He was very lucky, the bites missed all major structures in his throat, neck, leg and belly, and only caused damage to skin and muscles.He had a second rabies shot today, the vet said 3 shots in all should be given. After that we will give the 7-in-1 vaccine next week. I didn't know that a booster for the 7-in-1 is needed after 4 weeks, and a third one. Is that the usual procedure, or only after suspected exposure?
My vet couldn't say what was wrong with the black dog. As he didn't look young, it could have been liver or kidney failure, he said, or cancer, or a blockage in the stomach, or an infection gone out of hand ... it's impossible to tell.
In any case, we don't take chances and vaccinate the little one.
I was myself already vaccinated for rabies years ago, and have already made an appointment with my doctor for a booster shot tomorrow.
So I hope we all get alright through this trying time!
NO. NO. NO. You do NOT give more than one rabies vaccination to a puppy or adult dog the first year. NEVER. And you do NOT give the same vaccine multiple times in one week! You space them apart every 4 weeks (for vaccinations other than rabies).
Please contact your vet and make sure you're understanding him correctly or not. Did he tell you it was in fact a rabies vaccine or some other vaccine?
And generally, we like to wait until they are at LEAST 12 weeks of age, some prefer 16 weeks of age before their very first rabies vaccine. Once they reach adulthood or, 1 year of age, one annual rabies vaccine, then one every-three-year rabies vaccine.
NO on the 7-in-one vaccine, some of those components may not be necessary!
Please read the following two links for canine vaccine protocols, ask your vet if he's ever heard of them, it's standard practice here in the US, depending on the individual needs of the individual dog.
Remember, you're talking about a 7 week old puppy (who might even be younger!), your vet is taxing his system something fierce with all those vaccinations!
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vth/vaccinations.aspx
http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/vmth/client ... proto.html
Please contact your vet and make sure you're understanding him correctly or not. Did he tell you it was in fact a rabies vaccine or some other vaccine?
And generally, we like to wait until they are at LEAST 12 weeks of age, some prefer 16 weeks of age before their very first rabies vaccine. Once they reach adulthood or, 1 year of age, one annual rabies vaccine, then one every-three-year rabies vaccine.
NO on the 7-in-one vaccine, some of those components may not be necessary!
Please read the following two links for canine vaccine protocols, ask your vet if he's ever heard of them, it's standard practice here in the US, depending on the individual needs of the individual dog.
Remember, you're talking about a 7 week old puppy (who might even be younger!), your vet is taxing his system something fierce with all those vaccinations!
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vth/vaccinations.aspx
http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/vmth/client ... proto.html
..........Traci
Re: Pup bitten by sick stray dog - vaccinate now?
Oh dear.
I spoke to two vets here and to one shelter caretaker. All said it is standard procedure after suspected exposure to rabies to give 3 shots: on day 1, on day 4 and on day 7. Even to very young pups and kittens. Apparently that's how it is done here. Maybe because rabies is still so common here?
Yes, he gave the rabies vaccine yesterday, I didn't misunderstand him.
So, you would now recommend NOT to give the third rabies shot on day 7 but rather wait for 4 weeks?
And not to give the 7-in-1 at all now? Even if the dog that bit him could have had one of those diseases?
I spoke to two vets here and to one shelter caretaker. All said it is standard procedure after suspected exposure to rabies to give 3 shots: on day 1, on day 4 and on day 7. Even to very young pups and kittens. Apparently that's how it is done here. Maybe because rabies is still so common here?
Yes, he gave the rabies vaccine yesterday, I didn't misunderstand him.
So, you would now recommend NOT to give the third rabies shot on day 7 but rather wait for 4 weeks?
And not to give the 7-in-1 at all now? Even if the dog that bit him could have had one of those diseases?
Re: Pup bitten by sick stray dog - vaccinate now?
Can you list the rabies vaccine type/manufacturer? Can you also list the 7-in-one vaccine and it's manufacturer?
Do you know if the vet used a full, complete dose of a rabies vaccine intended for annual use? (i.e., the same vaccination dose he would give a healthy adult dog). If he's using a full normal dose and spitting it into three injections, this probably isn't going to be effective. (again, if you know the manufacturer of the rabies vaccine/type, please provide it here)
Depending on the type of vaccine and the dose would depend on how often to give it, but your vet's approach is overkill in my opinion, although I have no idea what it is and what the dose is. No, this is not common practice here, ONE dose of a vaccine is all that is required.
I'd hold off on the other vaccinations until you can determine the type and manufacturer of the 7-in-one. If he has a one dose distemper vaccine, you could give this once, every 4 weeks.
Do you know if the vet used a full, complete dose of a rabies vaccine intended for annual use? (i.e., the same vaccination dose he would give a healthy adult dog). If he's using a full normal dose and spitting it into three injections, this probably isn't going to be effective. (again, if you know the manufacturer of the rabies vaccine/type, please provide it here)
Depending on the type of vaccine and the dose would depend on how often to give it, but your vet's approach is overkill in my opinion, although I have no idea what it is and what the dose is. No, this is not common practice here, ONE dose of a vaccine is all that is required.
I'd hold off on the other vaccinations until you can determine the type and manufacturer of the 7-in-one. If he has a one dose distemper vaccine, you could give this once, every 4 weeks.
..........Traci
Re: Pup bitten by sick stray dog - vaccinate now?
Please excuse my barging in on the thread and for the lengthy post. I'm no medical expert, but do have a lifelong familiarity with descriptions/terminology of rabies disease as such definitions apply in the Western Hemisphere: It appears to me that we have some sort of language or semantics conflict, or misunderstanding going on regarding definition(s) of the term "rabies."
Just a few weeks ago here in Austin, Texas, a rabies-related incident was newsworthy for TV outlets: two children picked up a dead bat they found in the street; the little boys were immediately hospitalized to await forensic results, as bats in this area are sometimes rabies carriers: if the bat had tested positive, the lads would have had to undergo a painful series of injections. Our bat population is vital to the environment - fortunately, strenuous programs for rabies control have improved the situation, if not eliminated the danger entirely - the dead bat was not rabid... btw: I have resided in many different parts of the USA, east coast, west coast, gulf coast, middle west, southwest, deep south, upper south, great lakes/Canadian border, Colorado Rockies...often in rural areas... and have never observed the subject of RABIES being discussed as though it were no more serious than chicken pox or measles...
My point is: So far as I know, the term "rabies" here in the US does NOT mean a condition for which a person would receive preventive inoculation on a casual basis, or for which a young puppy would receive "booster" vaccinations in such short order as Ash understands the pup's vets to be saying... Unless perhaps India has recently discovered and put into operation some huge break-through technology for dealing with the ancient plague of rabies? Sorry, Ash, I don't mean to be discourteous, but you do see the discrepancy?
Here is an example of the standard American definition of rabies - it is from Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Eleventh Edition 2005: "rabies - an acute viral disease of the nervous system of mammals that is caused by a rhabdovirus (species Rabies virus of the genus Lyssavirus) usually transmitted through the bite of a rabid animal and that is characterized typically by increased salivation, abnormal behavior, and eventual paralysis and death."
And here are a couple of links which may be of interest in illustrating the serious nature of rabies endangerment as viewed in most of the world:
http://www.adc.gov/rabies/exposure
http://www.worldrabiesday.org/
Again, my apologies for butting in, and for being pedantic
db
Austin, Texas
Just a few weeks ago here in Austin, Texas, a rabies-related incident was newsworthy for TV outlets: two children picked up a dead bat they found in the street; the little boys were immediately hospitalized to await forensic results, as bats in this area are sometimes rabies carriers: if the bat had tested positive, the lads would have had to undergo a painful series of injections. Our bat population is vital to the environment - fortunately, strenuous programs for rabies control have improved the situation, if not eliminated the danger entirely - the dead bat was not rabid... btw: I have resided in many different parts of the USA, east coast, west coast, gulf coast, middle west, southwest, deep south, upper south, great lakes/Canadian border, Colorado Rockies...often in rural areas... and have never observed the subject of RABIES being discussed as though it were no more serious than chicken pox or measles...
My point is: So far as I know, the term "rabies" here in the US does NOT mean a condition for which a person would receive preventive inoculation on a casual basis, or for which a young puppy would receive "booster" vaccinations in such short order as Ash understands the pup's vets to be saying... Unless perhaps India has recently discovered and put into operation some huge break-through technology for dealing with the ancient plague of rabies? Sorry, Ash, I don't mean to be discourteous, but you do see the discrepancy?
Here is an example of the standard American definition of rabies - it is from Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Eleventh Edition 2005: "rabies - an acute viral disease of the nervous system of mammals that is caused by a rhabdovirus (species Rabies virus of the genus Lyssavirus) usually transmitted through the bite of a rabid animal and that is characterized typically by increased salivation, abnormal behavior, and eventual paralysis and death."
And here are a couple of links which may be of interest in illustrating the serious nature of rabies endangerment as viewed in most of the world:
http://www.adc.gov/rabies/exposure
http://www.worldrabiesday.org/
Again, my apologies for butting in, and for being pedantic
db
Austin, Texas
Re: Pup bitten by sick stray dog - vaccinate now?
I didn't read the links, so this info may be in them. I agree, this is probably semantics.
The pup is most likely receiving rabies ANTIBODY shots (aka vaccines) intended to immediately give him circulating antibody to the disease. The rabies vaccine Traci refers to is the rabies ANTIGEN which is designed to cause the animal to produce it's own antibodies to defend it against future potential exposure to this deadly virus. This vaccine does not induce immediate immunity whereas the antibody vaccine would.
The pup is most likely receiving rabies ANTIBODY shots (aka vaccines) intended to immediately give him circulating antibody to the disease. The rabies vaccine Traci refers to is the rabies ANTIGEN which is designed to cause the animal to produce it's own antibodies to defend it against future potential exposure to this deadly virus. This vaccine does not induce immediate immunity whereas the antibody vaccine would.
"A dog is the only thing on earth that loves you more than he loves himself." ~ Josh Billings.
Re: Pup bitten by sick stray dog - vaccinate now?
E's, just so you know, Ash and I have worked together quite hard in the last few years to interpret her Indian vet's practices, it is a misnomer to say we are both very frustrated. Indian vet medicine is very different than US vet medicine and the vast differences between medicine and the use of medicinal products can make your head spin. And forget labs, most Indian vets aren't educated in small animal medicine, and much of it is extrapolated from livestock med, some feline med extrapolated from canine med, etc.
As for innoculation for humans, it depends on the environment and the person's job with whatever species and hazards they are exposed to. I've had the rabies series twice, and one titer, and am grateful I did. I wouldn't do so "casually" as you say, but out of necessity.
Yeah, we're trying to establish the vet's rabies "booster" approach.....this isn't the first time and won't be the last that Ash has actually taught her own vet a few things and thank god she did because some of the things he has approached are truly mind-boggling. It isn't easy for her with what's available and what isn't available to her.
As for innoculation for humans, it depends on the environment and the person's job with whatever species and hazards they are exposed to. I've had the rabies series twice, and one titer, and am grateful I did. I wouldn't do so "casually" as you say, but out of necessity.
Yeah, we're trying to establish the vet's rabies "booster" approach.....this isn't the first time and won't be the last that Ash has actually taught her own vet a few things and thank god she did because some of the things he has approached are truly mind-boggling. It isn't easy for her with what's available and what isn't available to her.
..........Traci
Re: Pup bitten by sick stray dog - vaccinate now?
Ehm, sorry, I'm afraid I'm a bit lost now. Casual, E's? What was casual? I have been out of my mind with worry over the past week to get this puppy back to pink gums, good appetite and playful tail wagging, not to mention protecting him from a possible rabies exposure. What is possibly causal about that?
My vets approach? Giving 3 shots is certainly the opposite of casual, or is it not?
Getting myself a booster shot? Why would that be casual? I have been to my GP today. I asked him how the situation with rabies among humans in India is nowadays. He said since some years ago they have started to promote basic (pre exposure) rabies vaccinations and encourage people who come in frequent contact with stray dogs, or have been bitten by an unknown dog, to get booster shots, the incidences of rabies among humans has dropped dramatically.
So what is casual about that?
Traci, no I don't know the type of vaccine or the manufacturer. He will give me the certificate when all shots are done, he said.
He draw the vaccine out of a brown glass bottle, maybe a 20ml bottle, he draw about 1.5ml out to inject.
But I have to say, since here it is such a common problem and the vaccine given to every dog a vet gets his hands on I can not imagine that he does not know what and how much and how often to give it.
I will ask him whether it was antigens or antibodys, maybe that'll clarify it. (Thanks k9Karen for the explanation!)
Traci, you say "we're trying to establish the vet's rabies "booster" approach", which confuses me - I'm not aware that I said he gave a booster, nor did he say that. He is giving the basic vaccination, as far as I know, not a booster.
And btw, a small ray of hope - when we did Tommy's (my cat) blood count a few months back he actually knew the feline normal ranges! You might remember the frustration we had a couple of years back when my then vet compared the blood values to human normal ranges, saying they are "almost the same".
When I write here I always have the feeling worlds are clashing ...