Hi;
This is my first post to your group;hope you can help me out.
I have 3 cats. Recently we discovered that someone was peeing in laundry baskets. Our cat Riki has IBD and takes prednizone for treatment. This med can cause behaviour changes so we thought it was her. Then I saw Holly pee in the basket so I knew it wasn't Riki. I figured it might be a UTI so I took her in to get checked. The vet didn't find an infection but did find sugar in her urine. Bloodtests confirmed she was "borderline" diabetic. A week later the cat with IBD starts squating to pee all over the house. I bring her in and she did have a UTI but was also told she had sugar in her urine. Again bloodtest confirmed that Riki was "borderline" diabetic. I was told I had to buy very expensive prescription food to try and treat the diabetes with diet and then we would discuss insulin.
We were painted a very bad picture. My wife and I are extremely upset that we can not afford to treat our babies and that we may have to have them put down. I asked the vet if there were any organizations that could help us adopt out our cats to people who were willing to accept the responsibility of caring for sick cats. The vet treated me with contempt and refused to discuss the matter further and started spouting out about how the cats would have to come back in for more tests in a few weeks. Maybe she didn't understand me but I am disabled, living on a fixed income and my wife is working as an underpaid preschool teacher for Headstart with $60,000 in student loans to pay off.
I spoke to one of the other vets and got very interesting and confusing response. Yes both Holly and Riki were diabetic but I could feed them kitten chow instead of prescription food and the blood level for "borderline" Riki was 169 and so-called "borderline" Holly was 280! She said normal range was 70-170 and that Riki might go back to normal and had no explanation why the other vet would call Holly borderline with a level of 280.
The tests for the two cats topped out at $800. And they are telling me I have to repeat them in 3 weeks? The first tests cost me 25% of my life savings I simply can't afford this.
I am wondering if the vets are trying to push expensive treatments and foods (that all have to be purchased from them) and feeding us a line because I don't see how 169 and 280 can both be seen as "borderline".
Are they just playing off our love for our cats in order to fill their purses or does this make sense? It seems very strange for 2 cats in the same house to become diabetic at the same time and at the young ages of 4 and 5. This sounds like snake oil to me.
Thanks for your help.
Diabetic Cats
Re: Diabetic Cats
First, it's important to note that glucose in the urine can be due to stress, so combined urine/blood glucose is essential as part of the diagnosis. If both vets feel this is borderline, or that subsequent urine/blood glucose is not telling them enough, then they are obligated to opt for serum fructosamine concentration testing to help confirm (this level will be elevated in diabetic cats)
Once the fructosamine test is confirmative, or if borderline, non-insulin requiring, then dietary approach can indeed help prevent the disease. Most vets prefer Purina Veterinary DM for management, and have had some successes in treating non-insulin requiring patients. Some vets are embarking on the new theory that kitten food can also be a suitable diet, but would have to know the type of kitten food, and formulation. (theory is to feed a high protein, low carbohydrate diet, some cats can be maintained on high fiber-related diets). However, equally as important concerning diet is if the cat is overweight or underweight, then the diet would vary per individual need.
Diabetes is tricky at best, in diagnosing and treating, most of all, the initial blood glucose curves and regulating insulin (if required). Yes, it is an expensive endeavor, at first. Once diagnosed, regulated, on proper diet, etc, then it becomes less expensive to manage, and of course, managable for you and kitties at home (with diet and insulin injections where necessary, fairly simple to learn and maintain)
No, your vets are not trying to rob your pocketbook, what has ensued thus far has been necessary in properly diagnosing your kitties. As mentioned earlier, it is an expensive endeavor at first, but once managed, the costs are less of a worry. For your case in particular, if possible, I would ask the second vet to consult with a feline endocrinologist specialist, have them review your kitties' current lab results, and hopefully, get a proper recommendation on diet at this point (should not be any more costly than that of a long-distance phone charge). As long as they are not requiring insulin at this point, you can start with the diet to see if they will respond. If they at some point require insulin, be prepared for a few more tests, your vet needs to know this in order to appropriately and safely dose the insulin. Ideally, they should also recieve thyroid testing as well, this is a common disease often associated with diabetes, other primary diseases can also be secondary to the disease (liver and kidney disease)
As for costs, ask your vet for a payment arrangement plan that might be suitable. I would really hate to see these kitties PTS simply due to cost, they are dependant upon you for their health and care.
Once the fructosamine test is confirmative, or if borderline, non-insulin requiring, then dietary approach can indeed help prevent the disease. Most vets prefer Purina Veterinary DM for management, and have had some successes in treating non-insulin requiring patients. Some vets are embarking on the new theory that kitten food can also be a suitable diet, but would have to know the type of kitten food, and formulation. (theory is to feed a high protein, low carbohydrate diet, some cats can be maintained on high fiber-related diets). However, equally as important concerning diet is if the cat is overweight or underweight, then the diet would vary per individual need.
Diabetes is tricky at best, in diagnosing and treating, most of all, the initial blood glucose curves and regulating insulin (if required). Yes, it is an expensive endeavor, at first. Once diagnosed, regulated, on proper diet, etc, then it becomes less expensive to manage, and of course, managable for you and kitties at home (with diet and insulin injections where necessary, fairly simple to learn and maintain)
No, your vets are not trying to rob your pocketbook, what has ensued thus far has been necessary in properly diagnosing your kitties. As mentioned earlier, it is an expensive endeavor at first, but once managed, the costs are less of a worry. For your case in particular, if possible, I would ask the second vet to consult with a feline endocrinologist specialist, have them review your kitties' current lab results, and hopefully, get a proper recommendation on diet at this point (should not be any more costly than that of a long-distance phone charge). As long as they are not requiring insulin at this point, you can start with the diet to see if they will respond. If they at some point require insulin, be prepared for a few more tests, your vet needs to know this in order to appropriately and safely dose the insulin. Ideally, they should also recieve thyroid testing as well, this is a common disease often associated with diabetes, other primary diseases can also be secondary to the disease (liver and kidney disease)
As for costs, ask your vet for a payment arrangement plan that might be suitable. I would really hate to see these kitties PTS simply due to cost, they are dependant upon you for their health and care.
..........Traci
Re: Diabetic Cats
Thanks for the advice. I understand the need for urine and blood testing. What I don't understand is why one vet considers a glucose level of 280 to be borderline while another says 169 is borderline. That's a HUGE spread. Also Blood tests were performed on both cats and the diagnosis was confirmed for both cats and since diabetes is incurable I don't understand how the second vet could say that Riki's diabetes might "go way" over time. As far as I know you can only treat the disease. You can't make it "go away". If it goes away then it wasn't diabetes in the first place. I was a med tech for 10 years before my disability so I know medical jargon and didn't just get confused by the terminology. A blood glucose evel of 169 would be borderline if as they tell me the normal range for a cat is 70-170 so there is no way a level of 280 could ever possibly be considered borderline. It is possible that the level might be artificially inflated if the cats had eaten shortly before the test was done so I do see the need for a second test under fasting conditions.
I'm sorry but when I get 2 opposite opinions from 2 different vets I get suspicious.
I had an allergist test me when I was 12. He tested for 200 plants and 200 animals. He told me I had severe allergies to every plant and animal tested and that I would require very expensive weekly injections for years. The worst plant was maple and the worst animal was cat. I had 4 cats and 2 maple trees that I climbed every day and never had so much as a sniffle. He just wanted to cash in on the injections. So when I hear a vet tell me I need to buy very expensive food from her and only from her and another vet tell me just feed them kitten chow I start to think about my allergist and snake oil.
I didn't mention the cats vitals before because my post was already long but Holly my black shorthair is 5 years old 8.5 lbs and healthy as a horse other than a wheeze from a respiratory infection she got from the shelter we rescued her from when she was 6 weeks old. She was raised on dry food (hannaford brand) and didn't start eating wet food until we got Riki a year and a half later.
Riki is a white shorthair 6 years old with one blue eye we rescued at the shelter when she was 1.5 years old. They neglected to inform us she had IBD (inflammatory bowel disease) she is only 7 lbs skinny as a rail and immediately vomitted any food she was given when we got her. A two second physical exam of her abdomen and the vet discovered that her intestines were extremely thick and she probably had IBD. She has been on prednisone since then. I try to limit the dose as much as I can because it's just plain bad to be on steroids all the time and prednisone suppresses the immune system making her prone to infection. I have had to increase the steroid to every day or every other day just to keep her from vomitting all the time. This has me really irritated with the animal shelter at petsmart where we rescued her. There is no way they could not have missed the fact that this cat would vomit 5 minutes after every meal. Had they been honest and told us up front it would have saved the cat weeks of vomitting and stress( we thought the vomitting was from a change in diet or allergies so we spent weeks trying different brands and flavors to find one she could stomach). She has been on an exclusive diet of Friskies chicken with gravy and chicken and salmon in gravy. She can't tolerate solid foods so she only eats the gravy.
Recently (last winter) we rescued Ally a black/tan shorthair tabby. When she was approx 8 weeks old someone threw her out a 3rd story window across the street form my wifes' school. It took her 3 days but she crawled across the street, through the school grounds and into the ally where her cries were heard. Her front left leg was fractured and she could barely hold her head up. The manager of CEO/Headstart in her infinite compassion told someone to put the cat in a box, take it up the hill to the vet and have it put to sleep! My wife grabbed the cat, stuffed it under her coat, grabbed a bus and came straight to me at work crying. I told her to get whatever treatment the cat needed and we've had her ever since. She weighs in at a hefty 9.5 lbs and is healthy as a horse and eats like a goat.
Now I have the problem of feeding 3 cats 3 diferent diets which is nearly impossible since anyone with multiple cats knows feeding is like pigs at a trough. Riki is skiddish and only nibbles she won't sit and eat her fill in one sitting so she is getting weaker and skinnier because I have to take the food away so Holly and Ally won't eat it and Holly hates the diabetic food and tries to bury it and went a week without eating until the vet told me to try kitten food which she does eat (purina kitten chow) and Riki will eat too but it hurts her stomach and Ally will eat anything left behind she sucks it up like a vacuum.
My physical disability limits me as well. I am the one who cleans, medicates and feeds the cats and they are already wary of me because I am constantly shoving pills down their throats. I can't catch a cat if it won't come to me and my vision is severely distorted so I am very worried about doing injections. Overdosing, underdosing, not seeing the air bubble, that sort of thing. And so far the extent of my vets help/advice is to tell me who to make the check out to.
And as I said our finances are extremely strained. I am denying myself medical treatment so I can pay the bills already. I am fully disabled and pretty much unemployable since I can't walk more than a few minutes at a time because of the pain and cannot drive because of the vision. I was stripped of my medicaid coverage because I got married. I was told I should have "knocked up" my girlfriend as often as I could and they would pay for everything. Well pardon me for having morals.
$20 for a 4 lb bag of food that will last a week tops is rediculous. I can buy 75 lbs of purina cat chow for that price! How can the cost be justified? It's just a slightly modified recipe of plain cat chow. If it had medication in it I could understand but it doesn't. That's an extra $100 a month to budget in and we haven't even started with meds yet. I just don't see how we can manage it if they do need insulin.
This will be the hardest decision I will ever have to make but if it comes down to losing my home or my cats... well I won't go there unless their is no other way. Right now the cats seem healthy except for Riki with her IBD so I will stick with the kitten chow for now and try to find some way to fatten Riki up to where she looks healthy again.
Thanks again for the advice
Howard[/img]
I'm sorry but when I get 2 opposite opinions from 2 different vets I get suspicious.
I had an allergist test me when I was 12. He tested for 200 plants and 200 animals. He told me I had severe allergies to every plant and animal tested and that I would require very expensive weekly injections for years. The worst plant was maple and the worst animal was cat. I had 4 cats and 2 maple trees that I climbed every day and never had so much as a sniffle. He just wanted to cash in on the injections. So when I hear a vet tell me I need to buy very expensive food from her and only from her and another vet tell me just feed them kitten chow I start to think about my allergist and snake oil.
I didn't mention the cats vitals before because my post was already long but Holly my black shorthair is 5 years old 8.5 lbs and healthy as a horse other than a wheeze from a respiratory infection she got from the shelter we rescued her from when she was 6 weeks old. She was raised on dry food (hannaford brand) and didn't start eating wet food until we got Riki a year and a half later.
Riki is a white shorthair 6 years old with one blue eye we rescued at the shelter when she was 1.5 years old. They neglected to inform us she had IBD (inflammatory bowel disease) she is only 7 lbs skinny as a rail and immediately vomitted any food she was given when we got her. A two second physical exam of her abdomen and the vet discovered that her intestines were extremely thick and she probably had IBD. She has been on prednisone since then. I try to limit the dose as much as I can because it's just plain bad to be on steroids all the time and prednisone suppresses the immune system making her prone to infection. I have had to increase the steroid to every day or every other day just to keep her from vomitting all the time. This has me really irritated with the animal shelter at petsmart where we rescued her. There is no way they could not have missed the fact that this cat would vomit 5 minutes after every meal. Had they been honest and told us up front it would have saved the cat weeks of vomitting and stress( we thought the vomitting was from a change in diet or allergies so we spent weeks trying different brands and flavors to find one she could stomach). She has been on an exclusive diet of Friskies chicken with gravy and chicken and salmon in gravy. She can't tolerate solid foods so she only eats the gravy.
Recently (last winter) we rescued Ally a black/tan shorthair tabby. When she was approx 8 weeks old someone threw her out a 3rd story window across the street form my wifes' school. It took her 3 days but she crawled across the street, through the school grounds and into the ally where her cries were heard. Her front left leg was fractured and she could barely hold her head up. The manager of CEO/Headstart in her infinite compassion told someone to put the cat in a box, take it up the hill to the vet and have it put to sleep! My wife grabbed the cat, stuffed it under her coat, grabbed a bus and came straight to me at work crying. I told her to get whatever treatment the cat needed and we've had her ever since. She weighs in at a hefty 9.5 lbs and is healthy as a horse and eats like a goat.
Now I have the problem of feeding 3 cats 3 diferent diets which is nearly impossible since anyone with multiple cats knows feeding is like pigs at a trough. Riki is skiddish and only nibbles she won't sit and eat her fill in one sitting so she is getting weaker and skinnier because I have to take the food away so Holly and Ally won't eat it and Holly hates the diabetic food and tries to bury it and went a week without eating until the vet told me to try kitten food which she does eat (purina kitten chow) and Riki will eat too but it hurts her stomach and Ally will eat anything left behind she sucks it up like a vacuum.
My physical disability limits me as well. I am the one who cleans, medicates and feeds the cats and they are already wary of me because I am constantly shoving pills down their throats. I can't catch a cat if it won't come to me and my vision is severely distorted so I am very worried about doing injections. Overdosing, underdosing, not seeing the air bubble, that sort of thing. And so far the extent of my vets help/advice is to tell me who to make the check out to.
And as I said our finances are extremely strained. I am denying myself medical treatment so I can pay the bills already. I am fully disabled and pretty much unemployable since I can't walk more than a few minutes at a time because of the pain and cannot drive because of the vision. I was stripped of my medicaid coverage because I got married. I was told I should have "knocked up" my girlfriend as often as I could and they would pay for everything. Well pardon me for having morals.
$20 for a 4 lb bag of food that will last a week tops is rediculous. I can buy 75 lbs of purina cat chow for that price! How can the cost be justified? It's just a slightly modified recipe of plain cat chow. If it had medication in it I could understand but it doesn't. That's an extra $100 a month to budget in and we haven't even started with meds yet. I just don't see how we can manage it if they do need insulin.
This will be the hardest decision I will ever have to make but if it comes down to losing my home or my cats... well I won't go there unless their is no other way. Right now the cats seem healthy except for Riki with her IBD so I will stick with the kitten chow for now and try to find some way to fatten Riki up to where she looks healthy again.
Thanks again for the advice
Howard[/img]
Re: Diabetic Cats
Good news. Or at least some hope. I found a neighbor with diabetic cats. According to her and her vet any level over 120 is diabetic and requires insulin. She also told me that she can get a vial of insulin for $25 from her vet and it usually lasts 6 months and the needles are very cheap and do not require a prescription. Working as I did in a hospital for a decade I know for a fact that the ace bandage you got at the ER when you twisted your ankle and were susequently billed $10 for, cost the hospital about 50 cents. I also knew that needles cost 5 cents or less and syringes cost 15 cents. This is what had me worried. I was expecting to be billed $100 for $1 of diabetic syringes. And it looks like the Troy vet would charge me that but the lansingburgh vet seems to put the pet before the profit. Blood glucose testing costs $6 there. At troy it costs $40 just to walk in the door then the test is $30. So it looks like I'll be getting a new vet.
On the downside Riki is not looking good. She is getting skinnier on the diabetic diet and her fur looks unkempt. Unfortunately her IBD requires a high calorie diet to keep her weight up but the diabetic diet is designed to make the animal lose weight.
Holly doesn't show any signs of illness at all. You would never know she was sick.
Hopefully things will work out. I tried to attach a pic of the cats but it didn't work and I can't figure out how to get it to. Sorry. I thought you might like to see them.
Howard
On the downside Riki is not looking good. She is getting skinnier on the diabetic diet and her fur looks unkempt. Unfortunately her IBD requires a high calorie diet to keep her weight up but the diabetic diet is designed to make the animal lose weight.
Holly doesn't show any signs of illness at all. You would never know she was sick.
Hopefully things will work out. I tried to attach a pic of the cats but it didn't work and I can't figure out how to get it to. Sorry. I thought you might like to see them.
Howard
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kate & kobi
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:50 pm
- Location: California
Re: Diabetic Cats
Thanks for updating us! I'm so glad you're pursuing all of your options and I hope you can see the other vet soon. It sounds like Riki needs another opinion, at least, if she's losing weight. 
Good luck & I will keep your cats in my prayers.
Good luck & I will keep your cats in my prayers.
Re: Diabetic Cats
Actually, Type II diabetes is non-insulin requiring, this may be what your vets are thinking at this point (again, need to consider the fructosamine testing to help confirm). Some borderline cats indeed can be treated by diet alone, and some never develop diabetes mellitus at all.Marauder wrote:the diagnosis was confirmed for both cats and since diabetes is incurable I don't understand how the second vet could say that Riki's diabetes might "go way" over time. As far as I know you can only treat the disease. You can't make it "go away". If it goes away then it wasn't diabetes in the first place.
Again, the kitten diet is an approach that isn't widely researched at this point in time. If you are inclinded, ask your vet about case studies that appear to be successful using the kitten food, but remember that each cat is different with individual needs. Dietary treatment must be tailored to the individual.So when I hear a vet tell me I need to buy very expensive food from her and only from her and another vet tell me just feed them kitten chow I start to think about my allergist and snake oil.
Shelters often don't have practicing vets on duty to diagnose, and most shelters don't have the funding to support veterinary care on a continual basis. The shelter probably didn't even know about the IBD, let alone have the resources to address it or to treat kitty.They neglected to inform us she had IBD (inflammatory bowel disease) she is only 7 lbs skinny as a rail and immediately vomitted any food she was given when we got her. A two second physical exam of her abdomen and the vet discovered that her intestines were extremely thick and she probably had IBD.
I hope you are not self-medicating her, prednisone needs to be dosed specifically, and must be used with extreme caution, you can't intermittently change the dose on your own, and you should be getting frequent blood profiling done on her to monitor it's effects or potential long term side effects. Also, never, ever ever, cease the prednisone on your own, cessation can cause a miriad of detrimental side effects and even sudden death. ALWAYS consult your vet when using prednisone or any other corticosteroid.She has been on prednisone since then. I try to limit the dose as much as I can because it's just plain bad to be on steroids all the time and prednisone suppresses the immune system making her prone to infection. I have had to increase the steroid to every day or every other day just to keep her from vomitting all the time.
Again, it was not a full veterinary facility able to utilize veterinary diagnostics, and in any shelter-type environment, can't expect laypersons/staff members to be able to identify or diagnose certain health conditions.This has me really irritated with the animal shelter at petsmart where we rescued her. There is no way they could not have missed the fact that this cat would vomit 5 minutes after every meal. Had they been honest and told us up front it would have saved the cat weeks of vomitting and stress( we thought the vomitting was from a change in diet or allergies so we spent weeks trying different brands and flavors to find one she could stomach).
I must be missing a vital part of information here. IBD is usually treated with dietary approach, the mainstay being a hypoallergenic diet or a diet containing a suitable fiber source, or a novel protein diet, with the protein being one that kitty has never been prior exposed to. Your vet should have been extremely thorough with you in dietary process of elimination. Also, not being able to tolerate solid foods, you should be able to puree a special diet for her, eating the gravy only from a Friskies' canned food is NOT a sufficient diet for this condition.She has been on an exclusive diet of Friskies chicken with gravy and chicken and salmon in gravy. She can't tolerate solid foods so she only eats the gravy.
Getting weaker and skinnier is a sign of poor nutrition, and she could very well be developing complications from the IBD. Put simply, you need to get her re-evaluated (preferrably by a new vet who is committed to the task of proper dietary approach) Feeding her in a seperate area might also help tremendously, if she is skiddish or feels intimidated by the other two, this could be one reason she is not eating sufficiently.Riki is skiddish and only nibbles she won't sit and eat her fill in one sitting so she is getting weaker and skinnier because I have to take the food away so Holly and Ally won't eat it
Don't know what type you're feeding, but you have the option of switching the diabetic diet to another veterinary brand. Hill's, Purina Veterinary, and Eukanuba all have diets specifically formulated for diabetic patients. It's not uncommon for patients to need to be switched in early diagnosis, many cats won't eat certain products, so it's important that a new diet is initiated.and Holly hates the diabetic food and tries to bury it and went a week without eating until the vet told me to try kitten food which she does eat (purina kitten chow)
I'm sorry but I find that difficult to grasp. Vets are obligated to thoroughly discuss diagnosis, treatment and management of disease with their clients. All vets know and understand that many clients are apprehensive about injections, and will willingly discuss these matters thoroughly, including addressing your concerns. They will even take valuable time with you to teach you proper insulin injection and technique, feeding requirements, what to watch for concerning hypo or hyperglycemic episodes, and will answer and address any questions and concerns you might have. Their techs are also trained to handle these concerns. If you are apprehensive in the least, speak out and let your vet know you need the help, they don't know what you're thinking unless you speak up. They also have to assume you understand the treatment, if you don't ask questions, how are they to know you are compliant in treating your cats.my vision is severely distorted so I am very worried about doing injections. Overdosing, underdosing, not seeing the air bubble, that sort of thing. And so far the extent of my vets help/advice is to tell me who to make the check out to.
It can be justified because these are veterinary prescription diets, these diets are not intended to be used long term, (except for management of disease)....they are formulated for specific conditions, you can't get that in commercial diets. It is NOT a "slightly modified recipe of plain cat chow"......on the contrary, prescription diets are for specific conditions, researched and formulated by vets and researchers in their fields of nutrition, disease and preventative medicine. The focus here is the diabetic diet here, you have to understand that a proper formulation of carbohydrates, fat and proteins are critical in managing diabetes, metabolism plays a vital role in the ability to absorb insulin, maintain proper weight, etc.$20 for a 4 lb bag of food that will last a week tops is rediculous. I can buy 75 lbs of purina cat chow for that price! How can the cost be justified? It's just a slightly modified recipe of plain cat chow.
Medications per se, no, but proper nutrient and ingredients, and all as mentioned above, YES, they cannot be surpassed by commercial diets in the management of disease.If it had medication in it I could understand but it doesn't.
First, might I suggest calling your local humane society or local animal advocate groups for direction and help with reduced costs. Some vets will indeed consider low-income families and will try to keep the expenses reduced. Check around, and ask these organizations if such programs are available in your area. If there absolutely is no resource as such available to you, I would strongly suggest trying to find a new home for them. You could also call local vets in your area and talk to them about potential adopters who would be willing to take them on...many techs also will try to help out in either adoptions or finding new homes. It's worth your cats' health, welfare and lives, to make the effort to check out your options.This will be the hardest decision I will ever have to make but if it comes down to losing my home or my cats... well I won't go there unless their is no other way. Right now the cats seem healthy except for Riki with her IBD so I will stick with the kitten chow for now and try to find some way to fatten Riki up to where she looks healthy again.
(Just saw your new post)
Again, you need to get her re-evaluated and discuss APPROPRIATE dietary approach for her, hopefully your new vet will be committed to the task. And not all diabetic diets are intended for the cat to lose weight, but rather the proper formation for glucose maintenance, weight management and absorption of insulin.On the downside Riki is not looking good. She is getting skinnier on the diabetic diet and her fur looks unkempt. Unfortunately her IBD requires a high calorie diet to keep her weight up but the diabetic diet is designed to make the animal lose weight.
..........Traci
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Guest
Re: Diabetic Cats
Very good on finding the neighbor who will provide a lot of assistance I am certain, however, you need to be careful with using certain types of insulin for that long. The Humulin (made by Eli Lilly) insulins are only good for about 28 days and then the vial will have to be replaced. Eli Lilly has a very good chart on their web site which shows how their products should be stored and for how long:Marauder wrote:Good news. Or at least some hope. I found a neighbor with diabetic cats. According to her and her vet any level over 120 is diabetic and requires insulin. She also told me that she can get a vial of insulin for $25 from her vet and it usually lasts 6 months and the needles are very cheap and do not require a prescription.
http://www.lillydiabetes.com/Education/ ... torage.cfm
I cannot speak for any of the other types of insulin such as PZI.
Which "diabetic diet" is she eating? After caring for three diabetic Siamese, I found the best food was the Purina Diabetic Maintenance Formula called D/M. Yes, it is pricy, but depending on the weight of the cat, you only feed from a 1/4 cup to 1/2 cup per day if you are also supplementing with canned or wet food. My cat weighed 12.9 pounds and I put down about 1/3 cup of the dry food each day - she didn't eat it all most of the time as she was also supplemented with wet foods. The bag lasted me over a month in most cases. It is NOT at all designed to "make the animal lose weight", it is designed to assist in keeping the blood glucose levels down - and it was my experience that it worked very well. My Seal Point Siamese was taking a little over 3 units of Humulin U twice per day and about 30 days after switching to the Purina DM, we were able to reduce her insulin requirement down to just over 1 unit twice per day.Marauder wrote:On the downside Riki is not looking good. She is getting skinnier on the diabetic diet and her fur looks unkempt. Unfortunately her IBD requires a high calorie diet to keep her weight up but the diabetic diet is designed to make the animal lose weight.
I can fully understand and appreciate your financial concerns. I had them too. But the fact is that ~for me~ it was worth every penny. The expenses did get high at first, but as I learned more and more about the disease and how it presents in cats, I found ways to do things a lot more inexpensively - and when the time came for the big stuff, like serum fructosamine tests every month, I had it to spend.
I wish you only the best of luck with this - I won't lie to you and tell you it is easy. It isn't. And I won't try to tell you that your schedule won't change, it will. But, only you can make the determination of what is right for you to do - not only for you but more importantly, for your cat.
My continued best to you and yours,
Gaye Flagg
gayef@us.net
http://www.originalsiameseart.com
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Guest
Re: Diabetic Cats
The use of steroids in cats has been known to cause feline diabetes. It may be that if you can treat the IBD with more successful nutritional measures and get her off the pred, the diabetic environment in her system may correct itself.Marauder wrote: Riki is a white shorthair 6 years old .... She has been on prednisone since then.
Best of luck,
Gaye Flagg
gayef@us.net
http://www.originalsiameseart.com
Re: Diabetic Cats
Thanks for all the input. Here's the answers to everybody's questions.
Riki was not rescued from a typical shelter. A local cat lover started a program in which she selects about 6 cats at a time that she feels would be ideal pets or maybe were sitting on "death row" and she houses and displays these cats at PETSMART stores. She provides a detailed description of the cats. age, gender, name, reason for being put up for adoption by previous owner and; this is important; a complete medical history of the animal. Riki was listed as being a fixed,declawed female with all her regular shots plus FIV vaccinated and being free of disease. This was certified by two vets.
The humane society where she was chosen from has several vets on staff. They volunteer from the local vets offices and they rotate "shifts".
Also PETSMART has all animals checked by a vet before being allowed to be kenneled in their store. Obviously it would be bad for business to have a diseased animal in their store where they allow shoppers to come in with their pets and where they also provide a grooming service.
It took less than a minute for my vet to diagnose the IBD. A simple physical exam of the cat's abdomen with the hands and she could "feel" that the cat had hard, thick intestines. That was all it would have taken to be 90% sure of IBD. The only positive diagnosis is with endoscopy which can't be done in this area. But if the cat responds favorably to predisone then that is good enough for the vet to diagnose IBD or so they tell me.
Riki was not a "free" adoption. I had to pay nearly $200 to adopt her and I had to be "approved" as a suitable owner and sign legal documents that I would have her seen by a vet on a regular basis for the standard shots and boosters and routine checkups. The extra money I paid went to cover the cost of all the medical treatment she was supposed to have had to insure she was healthy and the cost of kennelling at petsmart.
That is why I cannot understand why no one told me of the IBD. The most obvious symptom would be a cage full of vomit every day. She simply could not eat any food without vomitting. She was presented as a healthy cat and the reason for being put up for adoption was "owner moving". I don't see how they could not notice a cat vomitting every meal every day. She had been there for several weeks.
The prednisone is prescription. My current vet sees no problem at all with prednisone taken everyday. She says it's harmless for the cat. I was not told it was an immuno-suppresant or that it could cause diabetes. I knew both these things from research I did.
One of the vets actually told me it would boost her immune system.
I have been using this vet office for over 30 years now. We have always had good luck with them but unfortunately our two regular vets are no longer there. One has retired and one recently passed away. They were replaced by 4 new vets. You can't pick your vet anymore. You get whichever vet is free at the time. Like in a free clinic.
It seems we get an opposite opinion/information from all of them. One vet tells me that yes prednisone can cause diabetes and will lower her immune system and shorten Riki's life but it will increase the "quality of life" for the time she has left and the other side tells me that the steroid is harmless and I should increase the dose.
Hopefully a new vet office will give me consistent info. I am worried though. This office has a bad reputation. It's one of those "oh don't take your pet there. I went there and....." horror stories from everyone I mention it to.
Could be blown out of proportion or could be valid. I am an attentive patient. Because of my disabilities I have been in and out of hospitals and had every concievable medical test dozens of times over for nearly 30 years now. I have learned over the years to be extremely detailed when speaking to a physician and describing a problem.
Riki's diet has never been an issue with my vets before. They know she only eats gravy and vomits solid foods and they are unconcerned or at least have not expressed any concern voluntarilly to me or when I ask specifically.
On my own I decided to try cat treats. Walmart brand Special kitty. They are solid but soft. High in protien and calories. I thought a few of these every day and Riki will put on a few pounds. One vet said that would be fine and I should give her at least 8 per day to see any weight gain. Riki is a large structured cat. So at 7 pounds she looks horribly skinny. Again the other vet said 7 pounds was the ideal weight for a cat. I'm sorry but when you can see the bones in her spine and tail and her abdomen is sunken in, that's not an ideal weight for this particular cat.
Holly is a petite framed cat and 7 pounds looks pudgy on her. But the one vet wouldn't listen to my concerns and the others don't want to contradict a fellow doctor. When I confront them they stare at the floor then change the subject.
The diabetic diet is the purina DM. Holly refused to eat it. We didn't cave in and give her regular food. She went over a week refusing to eat. She only started eating when we tried the kitten food. That is the only food we feed all 3 cats now, purina kitten chow.
They are all begging for their old food and riki is losing weight because she will starve herself all day hoping to get gravy and then at the end of the day, nibble on the kitten chow. She ate the Purina DM but vomitted it shortly after.
The only option my vets have offered to reduce the vomiting is to increase the steroid. Diet was NEVER explored or even considered.
I was the one who tried diet. I went through every possible brand/type/flavor of cat food until I found something Riki could keep down and that was the gravy in the cat food I mentioned and also the cheap hannaford brand dry cat food but it still made her vomit 50% of the time.
I asked my vet about help with the bills and worse case scenario putting the cats up for adoption to people who were willing and financially able to care for the cats. It nearly killed me to even think about that but the vet treated me like I was a "throwaway" pet owner who gives up and gets rid of a pet at the first inconvenience. I think that caring for a cat with IBD for 5 years now shows that I'm not like that.
About insulin. The vets refuse to even discuss it with me other than to say we will have to look into it if diet doesn't work then ignores my concerns when I tell them One cat flat out refuses to eat the new food and the other vomits it up. I had to pull teeth just to get one to tell me about the kitten chow option which is working for the moment with Holly but is difficult for Riki because it is solid and dry.
My neighbor is a very nice person but I have to be a bit wary. She is a flower child still living in the 60's and she has about 20 cats, several dogs about 8 rabbits, a few ferrets and a couple of parrots. I don't know how many mice,gerbils or hamsters. All in a small apartment.
Yes she is one of those and I worry that I will see her on the news someday as the "cat lady" with animal control taking dozens of animals out of her apartment in cages. She truly loves her pets but I don't see how you can properly care for that many in such a small place. I suppose she makes one vial of insulin last 6 months because she has no other choice.
I don't know her well and have never been to her home. I met her at the local laundromat.
I hope that answers everybody's questions and thanks for all the help I really needed it because I aint gettin much around here.
I know it sounds odd but the vet is just not giving me any input. She got us all worried and left us hanging with only a come back for more tests next month answer each time.
Howie
Riki was not rescued from a typical shelter. A local cat lover started a program in which she selects about 6 cats at a time that she feels would be ideal pets or maybe were sitting on "death row" and she houses and displays these cats at PETSMART stores. She provides a detailed description of the cats. age, gender, name, reason for being put up for adoption by previous owner and; this is important; a complete medical history of the animal. Riki was listed as being a fixed,declawed female with all her regular shots plus FIV vaccinated and being free of disease. This was certified by two vets.
The humane society where she was chosen from has several vets on staff. They volunteer from the local vets offices and they rotate "shifts".
Also PETSMART has all animals checked by a vet before being allowed to be kenneled in their store. Obviously it would be bad for business to have a diseased animal in their store where they allow shoppers to come in with their pets and where they also provide a grooming service.
It took less than a minute for my vet to diagnose the IBD. A simple physical exam of the cat's abdomen with the hands and she could "feel" that the cat had hard, thick intestines. That was all it would have taken to be 90% sure of IBD. The only positive diagnosis is with endoscopy which can't be done in this area. But if the cat responds favorably to predisone then that is good enough for the vet to diagnose IBD or so they tell me.
Riki was not a "free" adoption. I had to pay nearly $200 to adopt her and I had to be "approved" as a suitable owner and sign legal documents that I would have her seen by a vet on a regular basis for the standard shots and boosters and routine checkups. The extra money I paid went to cover the cost of all the medical treatment she was supposed to have had to insure she was healthy and the cost of kennelling at petsmart.
That is why I cannot understand why no one told me of the IBD. The most obvious symptom would be a cage full of vomit every day. She simply could not eat any food without vomitting. She was presented as a healthy cat and the reason for being put up for adoption was "owner moving". I don't see how they could not notice a cat vomitting every meal every day. She had been there for several weeks.
The prednisone is prescription. My current vet sees no problem at all with prednisone taken everyday. She says it's harmless for the cat. I was not told it was an immuno-suppresant or that it could cause diabetes. I knew both these things from research I did.
One of the vets actually told me it would boost her immune system.
I have been using this vet office for over 30 years now. We have always had good luck with them but unfortunately our two regular vets are no longer there. One has retired and one recently passed away. They were replaced by 4 new vets. You can't pick your vet anymore. You get whichever vet is free at the time. Like in a free clinic.
It seems we get an opposite opinion/information from all of them. One vet tells me that yes prednisone can cause diabetes and will lower her immune system and shorten Riki's life but it will increase the "quality of life" for the time she has left and the other side tells me that the steroid is harmless and I should increase the dose.
Hopefully a new vet office will give me consistent info. I am worried though. This office has a bad reputation. It's one of those "oh don't take your pet there. I went there and....." horror stories from everyone I mention it to.
Could be blown out of proportion or could be valid. I am an attentive patient. Because of my disabilities I have been in and out of hospitals and had every concievable medical test dozens of times over for nearly 30 years now. I have learned over the years to be extremely detailed when speaking to a physician and describing a problem.
Riki's diet has never been an issue with my vets before. They know she only eats gravy and vomits solid foods and they are unconcerned or at least have not expressed any concern voluntarilly to me or when I ask specifically.
On my own I decided to try cat treats. Walmart brand Special kitty. They are solid but soft. High in protien and calories. I thought a few of these every day and Riki will put on a few pounds. One vet said that would be fine and I should give her at least 8 per day to see any weight gain. Riki is a large structured cat. So at 7 pounds she looks horribly skinny. Again the other vet said 7 pounds was the ideal weight for a cat. I'm sorry but when you can see the bones in her spine and tail and her abdomen is sunken in, that's not an ideal weight for this particular cat.
Holly is a petite framed cat and 7 pounds looks pudgy on her. But the one vet wouldn't listen to my concerns and the others don't want to contradict a fellow doctor. When I confront them they stare at the floor then change the subject.
The diabetic diet is the purina DM. Holly refused to eat it. We didn't cave in and give her regular food. She went over a week refusing to eat. She only started eating when we tried the kitten food. That is the only food we feed all 3 cats now, purina kitten chow.
They are all begging for their old food and riki is losing weight because she will starve herself all day hoping to get gravy and then at the end of the day, nibble on the kitten chow. She ate the Purina DM but vomitted it shortly after.
The only option my vets have offered to reduce the vomiting is to increase the steroid. Diet was NEVER explored or even considered.
I was the one who tried diet. I went through every possible brand/type/flavor of cat food until I found something Riki could keep down and that was the gravy in the cat food I mentioned and also the cheap hannaford brand dry cat food but it still made her vomit 50% of the time.
I asked my vet about help with the bills and worse case scenario putting the cats up for adoption to people who were willing and financially able to care for the cats. It nearly killed me to even think about that but the vet treated me like I was a "throwaway" pet owner who gives up and gets rid of a pet at the first inconvenience. I think that caring for a cat with IBD for 5 years now shows that I'm not like that.
About insulin. The vets refuse to even discuss it with me other than to say we will have to look into it if diet doesn't work then ignores my concerns when I tell them One cat flat out refuses to eat the new food and the other vomits it up. I had to pull teeth just to get one to tell me about the kitten chow option which is working for the moment with Holly but is difficult for Riki because it is solid and dry.
My neighbor is a very nice person but I have to be a bit wary. She is a flower child still living in the 60's and she has about 20 cats, several dogs about 8 rabbits, a few ferrets and a couple of parrots. I don't know how many mice,gerbils or hamsters. All in a small apartment.
Yes she is one of those and I worry that I will see her on the news someday as the "cat lady" with animal control taking dozens of animals out of her apartment in cages. She truly loves her pets but I don't see how you can properly care for that many in such a small place. I suppose she makes one vial of insulin last 6 months because she has no other choice.
I don't know her well and have never been to her home. I met her at the local laundromat.
I hope that answers everybody's questions and thanks for all the help I really needed it because I aint gettin much around here.
I know it sounds odd but the vet is just not giving me any input. She got us all worried and left us hanging with only a come back for more tests next month answer each time.
Howie
Re: Diabetic Cats
Howie,
After reading your last post, I can only further suggest getting to a brand new vet altogether. I don't know your area, but isn't Troy a fairly large city, or are you able to at least get to another area that is reasonable and not too distant?
Your vets are of course giving you conflicting advice and based on your posts, totally ignoring the seriousness of Riki's IBD, if in fact, this is what the condition is. Prednisone can be used for flare-ups and intermittent maintenance, usually with no complications, but it must be dosed judiciously and cautiously, with followup bloodwork frequently to monitor immunosuppression. With the proper dietary approach, you might even be able to cease using the prednisone altogether, won't know until a proper diet is tried. (again, NEVER ever cease prednisone on your own, too many detrimental side effects, can be fatal). You said you have tried all sorts of diets for her, but if they were all commercial, they will not serve the purpose. The key diet usually is a hypoallergenic diet (veterinary prescribed, can also check into Eukanuba or Iams non-prescription brands, even Tender Vittles for IBD---but do NOT feed these to your other cats without a vet's specific instructions--- but a vet must supervise the transisition if IBD is the true diagnosis). You also mentioned her inability with hard foods, so perhaps a full oral exam is warranted to check for ulcers, diseased teeth, etc.
Walmart brand foods are generic crap (pardon me), they are not properly formulated for optimal health and most are severely lacking in proper nutrients, vitamins and minerals. ALL generic brands are usually borderline incomplete and deficient in nutrient formation. The treats may actually be part of the problem.
I am truly sorry for saying this, but if the cats were diagnosed with non-insulin requiring diabetes, I'm afraid you're playing with fire by feeding them all kitten food. You still don't know their individual dietary requirements, and each kitty must be focused on specifically by the vet. (again, a NEW, competent, willing and able vet experienced in feline medicine). Riki's persistent weight loss is extremely concerning, you cannot afford to mess around with this at all, she needs a re-evaluation promptly and a new dietary approach initiated immediately. Be prepared to spend slightly more for a proper food.
Again, ask a NEW vet about data on kitten food used to maintain diabetes, you need each kitty evaluated for their individual needs, one can never assume or expect all the cats to fair the same just because they're all eating the same diet.
I understand the predicaments here, but the only solution, I repeat the ONLY solution is a NEW competent, committed vet.
After reading your last post, I can only further suggest getting to a brand new vet altogether. I don't know your area, but isn't Troy a fairly large city, or are you able to at least get to another area that is reasonable and not too distant?
Your vets are of course giving you conflicting advice and based on your posts, totally ignoring the seriousness of Riki's IBD, if in fact, this is what the condition is. Prednisone can be used for flare-ups and intermittent maintenance, usually with no complications, but it must be dosed judiciously and cautiously, with followup bloodwork frequently to monitor immunosuppression. With the proper dietary approach, you might even be able to cease using the prednisone altogether, won't know until a proper diet is tried. (again, NEVER ever cease prednisone on your own, too many detrimental side effects, can be fatal). You said you have tried all sorts of diets for her, but if they were all commercial, they will not serve the purpose. The key diet usually is a hypoallergenic diet (veterinary prescribed, can also check into Eukanuba or Iams non-prescription brands, even Tender Vittles for IBD---but do NOT feed these to your other cats without a vet's specific instructions--- but a vet must supervise the transisition if IBD is the true diagnosis). You also mentioned her inability with hard foods, so perhaps a full oral exam is warranted to check for ulcers, diseased teeth, etc.
Walmart brand foods are generic crap (pardon me), they are not properly formulated for optimal health and most are severely lacking in proper nutrients, vitamins and minerals. ALL generic brands are usually borderline incomplete and deficient in nutrient formation. The treats may actually be part of the problem.
I am truly sorry for saying this, but if the cats were diagnosed with non-insulin requiring diabetes, I'm afraid you're playing with fire by feeding them all kitten food. You still don't know their individual dietary requirements, and each kitty must be focused on specifically by the vet. (again, a NEW, competent, willing and able vet experienced in feline medicine). Riki's persistent weight loss is extremely concerning, you cannot afford to mess around with this at all, she needs a re-evaluation promptly and a new dietary approach initiated immediately. Be prepared to spend slightly more for a proper food.
Again, ask a NEW vet about data on kitten food used to maintain diabetes, you need each kitty evaluated for their individual needs, one can never assume or expect all the cats to fair the same just because they're all eating the same diet.
I understand the predicaments here, but the only solution, I repeat the ONLY solution is a NEW competent, committed vet.
..........Traci