Kitten with chronic illness
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
I hear you 100%....keep in mind when I speak sometimes, its in Parent terms. I apologize for that. This medical issue is WAY outside my knowledge. Not so much the virus, Ive seen and dealt with that...its the lungs, 3+ months of ongoing symptoms and multiple meds used on him with no avail....
You are not pressuring me, making me misunderstand anything. This is information I need to educate myself to help this guy. I am running blind on this one and its killing me, figuratively of course. I welcome it all, take it all in, record it and DID speak of everything we talked about today with her. I also wanted to be respectful to her as the professional. My plan...let her do her thing...it sounds appropriate. Advocate for him on the next visit if this fails. See her response. If it doesnt move forward...Then Doc. #4 comes to the table. I am done messing around, but agree there is a "chain of events" to establish a good relationship.
My best....Lisa
You are not pressuring me, making me misunderstand anything. This is information I need to educate myself to help this guy. I am running blind on this one and its killing me, figuratively of course. I welcome it all, take it all in, record it and DID speak of everything we talked about today with her. I also wanted to be respectful to her as the professional. My plan...let her do her thing...it sounds appropriate. Advocate for him on the next visit if this fails. See her response. If it doesnt move forward...Then Doc. #4 comes to the table. I am done messing around, but agree there is a "chain of events" to establish a good relationship.
My best....Lisa
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
Lisa, thank you for sharing the conversation. I suspected much of it. And no, I'm not in the least surprised. There are "premium" other foods out there with similar problems - they certainly are not premium (mostly this is simply a marketing gimmick).
What is most concerning is that these companies refuse to indulge your vet when inquired. They can't possibly have any "trade secret" ingredients, so there's a possibility they are actually adding one or more ingredients and not revealing it and labeling properly (which is a no-no). Or, that they have absolutely no quality control and refuse to admit it, which opens them up for a great deal of scrutiny as well as FDA oversight at some point in time, their reputations could be at risk in that regard. The fact they will not work with a vet with known illness in cats eating their foods, is indeed a red flag.
Without getting into a food debate, I just want to say that human-grade, no chemicals, natural and so on is not always what it appears to be. When one starts dabbling in pet foods without experience (some manufacturers), this is where all rationale gets lost and the food ends up being crap, least of all, healthy to feed your cats.
While you might think I sound like a pharma shill, I assure you I'm not. I just want to advise that you can't believe everything you read or hear, particularly regarding brands who can't back up their claims with research, feeding trials, clinical trials and so on (you have to overlook the hype and marketing and look to the research and evidence). The most common pet food recalls are due to salmonella poisoning, aflatoxins (which is where that nasty apergillosis can come from) or a specific vitamin or mineral deficiency or excess - many of the brands, similar to those you've brought forward, are the most likely to have some sort of recall. Some brands are plagued with recalls.
Granted, we'd like our pet foods to be free of preservatives, dyes and chemicals, but it is not entirely possible in order to ensure proper formulation of nutrients, palatibility, texture, taste, and ensure a proper shelf-life (at least not at this point in time). A great deal of science, research, clinical trials and a great deal of money has gone into popular commercial brands and they have staked their reputations on their quality. Some are better than others, some shouldn't even be on the market (Ol Roy, Happy Cat, et al), the natural and holistic varieties are still relatively new on the scene and have a long way to go to get it right, if they get it at all. What is alarming is it seems anyone with half a brain can market a pet food simply based on hype or meddling from someone else's formula, that doesn't make it a quality food, nor safe.
Royal Canin is a quality food, and although I'm not sure I agree with every formula they have for marketing purposes, it is one I would recommend with confidence. Call them, and they are happy to talk to you, answer your questions, they'll even followup with you if you or your vet ask. All of the "big three's" while getting a bad rap, are also staffed with nutritionists, veterinarians, researchers and scientists, and I assure you, that's not shill! Ask any vet who has toured their facilities, talked with them, discussed cases, etc, they'll tell you why they are satisfied. It is not because of any kickbacks (although any retail can get a kickback, that shouldn't discourage you from quality) or due to lack of nutritional education, or any other common myth you might have heard.
I'm not saying you have to choose from the above. I'm just saying be very careful in your choices, look for the science and evidence, disregard the hype and testimonials and anecdotal ploys.
What is most concerning is that these companies refuse to indulge your vet when inquired. They can't possibly have any "trade secret" ingredients, so there's a possibility they are actually adding one or more ingredients and not revealing it and labeling properly (which is a no-no). Or, that they have absolutely no quality control and refuse to admit it, which opens them up for a great deal of scrutiny as well as FDA oversight at some point in time, their reputations could be at risk in that regard. The fact they will not work with a vet with known illness in cats eating their foods, is indeed a red flag.
Without getting into a food debate, I just want to say that human-grade, no chemicals, natural and so on is not always what it appears to be. When one starts dabbling in pet foods without experience (some manufacturers), this is where all rationale gets lost and the food ends up being crap, least of all, healthy to feed your cats.
While you might think I sound like a pharma shill, I assure you I'm not. I just want to advise that you can't believe everything you read or hear, particularly regarding brands who can't back up their claims with research, feeding trials, clinical trials and so on (you have to overlook the hype and marketing and look to the research and evidence). The most common pet food recalls are due to salmonella poisoning, aflatoxins (which is where that nasty apergillosis can come from) or a specific vitamin or mineral deficiency or excess - many of the brands, similar to those you've brought forward, are the most likely to have some sort of recall. Some brands are plagued with recalls.
Granted, we'd like our pet foods to be free of preservatives, dyes and chemicals, but it is not entirely possible in order to ensure proper formulation of nutrients, palatibility, texture, taste, and ensure a proper shelf-life (at least not at this point in time). A great deal of science, research, clinical trials and a great deal of money has gone into popular commercial brands and they have staked their reputations on their quality. Some are better than others, some shouldn't even be on the market (Ol Roy, Happy Cat, et al), the natural and holistic varieties are still relatively new on the scene and have a long way to go to get it right, if they get it at all. What is alarming is it seems anyone with half a brain can market a pet food simply based on hype or meddling from someone else's formula, that doesn't make it a quality food, nor safe.
Royal Canin is a quality food, and although I'm not sure I agree with every formula they have for marketing purposes, it is one I would recommend with confidence. Call them, and they are happy to talk to you, answer your questions, they'll even followup with you if you or your vet ask. All of the "big three's" while getting a bad rap, are also staffed with nutritionists, veterinarians, researchers and scientists, and I assure you, that's not shill! Ask any vet who has toured their facilities, talked with them, discussed cases, etc, they'll tell you why they are satisfied. It is not because of any kickbacks (although any retail can get a kickback, that shouldn't discourage you from quality) or due to lack of nutritional education, or any other common myth you might have heard.
I'm not saying you have to choose from the above. I'm just saying be very careful in your choices, look for the science and evidence, disregard the hype and testimonials and anecdotal ploys.
..........Traci
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
I am still on the fence with the food. I ordered it anyway for now.
I failed miserably this morning administering the meds. The chamber wont be here until Thursday. So, I made one out of a sheet protector and it worked! He was terrible today. Even refused a meal. After getting the second dose it turned him around. He dragged his wand toy around the house, ate a great dinner, played for a couple hours and it was nice to see he didnt hack and wheeze at all. He is just starting to get congested again so he received relief for a good 5 hours. Hopefully tomorrow will settle things down more.
When it rains it pours, today I noticed Lenny acting weird. Thought he was upset because Squiggy was down & out. He followed me to do laundry and hit the litter box and sure enough...liquid, mucus & bloody stool. Cant blame the meds on this one considering it came from Lenn!!! So off to the vet with my nasty sample. I didnt even call, just showed and said test everything, I dont care. Results will be in tomorrow.
...Lisa
I failed miserably this morning administering the meds. The chamber wont be here until Thursday. So, I made one out of a sheet protector and it worked! He was terrible today. Even refused a meal. After getting the second dose it turned him around. He dragged his wand toy around the house, ate a great dinner, played for a couple hours and it was nice to see he didnt hack and wheeze at all. He is just starting to get congested again so he received relief for a good 5 hours. Hopefully tomorrow will settle things down more.
When it rains it pours, today I noticed Lenny acting weird. Thought he was upset because Squiggy was down & out. He followed me to do laundry and hit the litter box and sure enough...liquid, mucus & bloody stool. Cant blame the meds on this one considering it came from Lenn!!! So off to the vet with my nasty sample. I didnt even call, just showed and said test everything, I dont care. Results will be in tomorrow.
...Lisa
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
Hopefully it's just stress, but could be a shared bacteria.
Are you also still feeding Lenny the same food we talked about? If so, please consider getting him on the same food as Squiggy, unless Squiggy's was veterinary-prescribed.
Are you also still feeding Lenny the same food we talked about? If so, please consider getting him on the same food as Squiggy, unless Squiggy's was veterinary-prescribed.
..........Traci
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
Both are transitioning to the same food. I discussed this...even the dry, which Squiggy doesnt eat. However it is out and available so we are covering all. We just need to watch Lenny's weight. R/C Kitten DD 40 or something like that.
Lisa
Lisa
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
Just posting an update...its been a few days.
Squiggy is responding to the inhalers with anti-viral, but not symptom free to date. We saw the specialist saturday, and he is still wheezing on meds but "wet" symptoms are not apparent. We pushed out the follow up to 4/26 to recheck the lungs and set out a continued course of tx. She thinks we may need to do a rhinoscope (sp?) to check the area and culture whats in there. I still believe alot of what is going on is in the throat, but she seems to think its referred.
The fecal exams are negative. Meds were started. Diet change has begun so we are seeing changes in Lenny, but not cured yet. Squiggy has returned to absolute normal on meds with this issue.
Looks like it will be a long road like I had been informed. Lenny is being neutered next week. Squiggy is not able to confidently undergo the procedure yet. I will let you know how the follow up goes.
My POA: Request a PCR and Throat Culture with mycoplasma results, recheck lungs and decide from there what needs to be done. Agree?
The meds and Aerokat alone were over 500.00 last week. I am not complaining on costs but need to be as conservative as possible to continue to care for his needs with the best possible outcome for this condition.
Thanks.....Lisa
Squiggy is responding to the inhalers with anti-viral, but not symptom free to date. We saw the specialist saturday, and he is still wheezing on meds but "wet" symptoms are not apparent. We pushed out the follow up to 4/26 to recheck the lungs and set out a continued course of tx. She thinks we may need to do a rhinoscope (sp?) to check the area and culture whats in there. I still believe alot of what is going on is in the throat, but she seems to think its referred.
The fecal exams are negative. Meds were started. Diet change has begun so we are seeing changes in Lenny, but not cured yet. Squiggy has returned to absolute normal on meds with this issue.
Looks like it will be a long road like I had been informed. Lenny is being neutered next week. Squiggy is not able to confidently undergo the procedure yet. I will let you know how the follow up goes.
My POA: Request a PCR and Throat Culture with mycoplasma results, recheck lungs and decide from there what needs to be done. Agree?
The meds and Aerokat alone were over 500.00 last week. I am not complaining on costs but need to be as conservative as possible to continue to care for his needs with the best possible outcome for this condition.
Thanks.....Lisa
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
If you're referring to an ELISA or PCR for calicivirus and chlamydia, then yes. Is she including a tracheal wash with this?
What is her opinion on which is more beneficial at this point, the rhinoscopy or the bronchoscopy? Remember, you want to look/culture for BOTH bacteria and fungal.
What is her opinion on which is more beneficial at this point, the rhinoscopy or the bronchoscopy? Remember, you want to look/culture for BOTH bacteria and fungal.
..........Traci
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
Yes I am on for ELISA, PCR, throat culture with Myco test. Repeat Tracheal wash was not in the plan, nor was the bronchoscopy. She feels, all is stemming from the nasal cavity and believes the rhinoscopy is the the next route. I think conservatively we should at least do the cultures first before putting him under again for explorative surgery. It is apparent to me: he is sustaining on the meds but still somewhat symptomatic which leads me to believe after 7 days we are dealing with an underlying issue in addition to the HPV-1 or other. Still no fever which is good news.
On another note, I spoke with the breeder this morning. Her 2 kittens have almost clear lungs (per xrays on Friday). They have been on Baytril for over a month with some prednisolone in between for the pneumonia. She was Rx to continue Baytril for 15 more days and recheck for 100%? Not looking to treat her kittens, just info on the case.
We have not been on antibiotics for a couple weeks now, but steroids and anti-virals.
.....Lisa
On another note, I spoke with the breeder this morning. Her 2 kittens have almost clear lungs (per xrays on Friday). They have been on Baytril for over a month with some prednisolone in between for the pneumonia. She was Rx to continue Baytril for 15 more days and recheck for 100%? Not looking to treat her kittens, just info on the case.
We have not been on antibiotics for a couple weeks now, but steroids and anti-virals.
.....Lisa
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
I'm confused, she first wants to culture again, wait and then consider a rhinoscopy?
Rhinoscopy and bronchoscopy are not exploratory surgeries - they are scope procedures, and although they require anesthesia, they don't require invasive techniques unless a biopsy or some sort of tissue repair is warranted.
Breeder??? I was under the assumption that this was just a home who had kittens to give away. Does your vet know your kitten(s) came from a breeder? Is this breeder on the up and up, or does she also have more than one breed in her home (this would be a red flag she might be less than stellar operation). Did your first vet have experience with this breeder and/or did he treat a lot of her cats/kittens for unusual reasons?
Just asking, sometimes a cattery is a prime environment for breeding all types of health problems. Do you actually have pertinent medical records and dna and sire/dam papers (registered) on these kittens?
Rhinoscopy and bronchoscopy are not exploratory surgeries - they are scope procedures, and although they require anesthesia, they don't require invasive techniques unless a biopsy or some sort of tissue repair is warranted.
Breeder??? I was under the assumption that this was just a home who had kittens to give away. Does your vet know your kitten(s) came from a breeder? Is this breeder on the up and up, or does she also have more than one breed in her home (this would be a red flag she might be less than stellar operation). Did your first vet have experience with this breeder and/or did he treat a lot of her cats/kittens for unusual reasons?
Just asking, sometimes a cattery is a prime environment for breeding all types of health problems. Do you actually have pertinent medical records and dna and sire/dam papers (registered) on these kittens?
..........Traci
Re: Kitten with chronic illness
No....I said my POA is consider the culture test before rhinoscopy. She said next step is scope. Considering they are being put under, I consider it exploratory. There is no diagnostic that is considered definitive, IMO. All come with risks to procedures especially under anesthesia when ill.
As for Breeder, I would consider her so. They came from a home, but are purebreds. She is no longer showing cats. We purchased Lenny who was discounted because he didn't have "spots", and were given Squiggy to join him because he was a runt and solid colored, undesireable as I was told. We, personally were not looking for the show cat, just a pet with a great demeanor and personality, in good health. No, I dont have papers, but the info on the parents has been shared with the vets. They are all tested.
My primary care vet and the owners vet have been in constant contact with each other on this issue...since we both have sick kittens. This pneumonia developed between all three kittens from 4-6 wks after I took him home. All three have the same problem. My kitten has seen two specialists. Her two have remained under the care of her vet. We do share information for the purpose of getting them to a healthy state. I am telling you all 4 vets involved calls this a very mysterious condition. None of them have seen such a chronic state of this illness.
I reached out for help. I feel helpless, and under pressure to help him get well. Each time he has relapsed, its worse than before and I am really trying the best I can to help him. Please believe that. That is the primary reason I reached out to you for additional help. I am trying to make the best possible decision for his care with the intent that I have to pay for all these procedures. We are in $5000.00 on him alone since 1/1/11. We have two seniors here too who require constant care (Renal failure Dog and Hyperthyroid Cat). I am not looking for sympathy, I want to make informed decisions in regards to Squiggy's health problems so all of this can be managed and hopefully put behind us for brighter days.
Thanks so much Traci...Lisa
As for Breeder, I would consider her so. They came from a home, but are purebreds. She is no longer showing cats. We purchased Lenny who was discounted because he didn't have "spots", and were given Squiggy to join him because he was a runt and solid colored, undesireable as I was told. We, personally were not looking for the show cat, just a pet with a great demeanor and personality, in good health. No, I dont have papers, but the info on the parents has been shared with the vets. They are all tested.
My primary care vet and the owners vet have been in constant contact with each other on this issue...since we both have sick kittens. This pneumonia developed between all three kittens from 4-6 wks after I took him home. All three have the same problem. My kitten has seen two specialists. Her two have remained under the care of her vet. We do share information for the purpose of getting them to a healthy state. I am telling you all 4 vets involved calls this a very mysterious condition. None of them have seen such a chronic state of this illness.
I reached out for help. I feel helpless, and under pressure to help him get well. Each time he has relapsed, its worse than before and I am really trying the best I can to help him. Please believe that. That is the primary reason I reached out to you for additional help. I am trying to make the best possible decision for his care with the intent that I have to pay for all these procedures. We are in $5000.00 on him alone since 1/1/11. We have two seniors here too who require constant care (Renal failure Dog and Hyperthyroid Cat). I am not looking for sympathy, I want to make informed decisions in regards to Squiggy's health problems so all of this can be managed and hopefully put behind us for brighter days.
Thanks so much Traci...Lisa